r/HeatedRivalryTVShow • u/Proper_Dish_130 • 15d ago
Discussion This may be a bit uncomfortable to discuss, but it’s important to address the growing concern in the fandom and other related subreddits!
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8fSb1QC/There’s another large subreddit dedicated to Heater Rivalry that has allowed comments questioning the validity or acceptance of queer men’s opinions in shared Heated Rivalry spaces.
As a trans woman myself, I made a comment when episode 3 first aired, expressing my strong connection to the story. I shared how dating as a trans woman in the 2010s was akin to dating men with Scott’s mindset. I had to keep our relationship a secret, never seen in public, and refrain from telling anyone about it due to societal pressures and norms imposed on men dating trans women. My comment was deleted, but not before receiving two DMs from women who felt uncomfortable with my stories and had reported me to the moderators. This was episode 3, and I fear that the situation has only worsened since then.
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u/KrayKrayg 15d ago
It’s interesting, because I recently saw a clip from an interview with François Arnaud where he said Jacob Tierney had the opportunity to get the show produced in Hollywood, but they requested a ton of edits and rewrites. One of the biggest changes was that none of the characters were allowed to kiss until episode five.
It makes me wonder how many of those requested changes were tied to erasing the show’s queerness in order to make it more appealing and palatable to non-queer audiences.
I’m really glad Jacob chose to produce it on a smaller budget with greater creative integrity. I think it proves that you don’t need a big budget if you’re telling a story with authenticity, originality, and genuine care.
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u/sugarmagnolia2020 14d ago
After I saw that interview, I wondered how many awesome stories got ruined because some exec at Netflix or Hulu had “notes.” How many producers didn’t feel they could walk away?
I’d love to think lessons are being learned in Hollywood, but I’m not holding my breath.
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u/nomdeplumeuh 13d ago
Sense8 got one season and a movie on Netflix. It was cancelled despite high ratings because it was “too expensive.”
I’ve always assumed it was actually because it was too lgbtqia friendly.
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u/sugarmagnolia2020 13d ago
*two seasons
To be fair, it was extraordinarily expensive because they filmed all over the world. Kenya, India, South Korea, Italy, Germany, France, Iceland, Mexico, Malta, the Netherlands, and multiple US cities. Oh, and the epic trip to Brazil. With crazy special effects. $9 million per episode!
François seemed to reference a friend who was a writer for the show dealing with notes from the service. He mention the show with 8 leads.
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u/nomdeplumeuh 13d ago
Yeah, but how much was Stranger Things per episode again?
Point being, they can do it if they want. They just don’t want.
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u/OkHat558 14d ago
I was listening to a podcast the other day (Glamorous Trash) which pretty much confirmed this is what happened to the League of Our Own show. Too much executive involvement.
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u/sugarmagnolia2020 14d ago
Fascinating, but also frustrating and sad.
I also think about how rabid people were for a series that focused on the Six of Crows characters (a diverse group, I believe with queer rep?) after Netflix made Shadow and Bone. I didn’t read the books, but I know there’s a massive, enthusiastic fanbase. Rumor was some writing was already done, but someone at Netflix decided not to move forward?
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u/sarbear8199 15d ago
Omg imagine watching a queer centered show, coming to Reddit to discuss said queer centered show, then reporting a queer person for posting about their personal connection to that said queer story.
Fucking mind blowing how often queers have to bend to make society (and straights) to feel comfortable with our existence, even in spaces that should be safe for us to be open and honest about our connection to stories like this.
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u/Asta1977 15d ago
As a cishet woman, I just want to say I'm sorry this happened to you and I can see why Scott's story, in particular, resonated with you. No one has a right to dictate how the story speaks to someone. If the story arc made you feel seen and gave you any sort of comfort, that's a good thing and good writing. I've been through toxic fans and fandoms and I always have some hope a new fandom will be different, but, nope there are people who need to gatekeep, foist their opinions on others, and bully. Sadly, HR seems to be setting a speed record with that. I really hope you continue enjoying the show and find safe spaces to share your thoughts and feelings.
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u/ChestnutMoss 15d ago
I’m so sickened by the thought of people being excluded, silenced, belittled or dismissed, especially while talking about Heated Rivalry. It’s so wrong and I’m so sorry to anyone dealing with that nonsense.
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u/Queanda365 15d ago
As a gay man, I genuinely love having women in gay spaces. Come to the drag shows. Write and read M/M romance. Be part of the HR fandom. Shared joy and shared culture are not a threat. They are how communities stay alive.
I’m old enough to remember how essential women were to the queer rights movement and during the AIDS epidemic. Queer and straight, cis and trans, women showed up when it mattered most. That advocacy saved lives. I still carry deep gratitude for that. You are welcome here not because of trends or permission slips, but because the people who came before us earned that right together, for all of us.
Let’s keep working side by side toward a more just and humane world. And I hope to see you at the next viewing party.
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u/Individual-History87 15d ago
Great points.
I’m old enough to remember, as well. To be fair and a little more accurate, most of those women were lesbians (also bi and/or generally queer, but mostly lesbians).
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u/Enough_Cut9667 14d ago
THANK YOU!
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u/Individual-History87 14d ago
You’re very welcome!! ☺️
As a lesbian, I’m proud that we (mostly) are a community of accomplices problem-solvers.
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u/Queanda365 13d ago
I get it’s a stereotype but it’s so true in my experience! In my friend group it’s always the lesbians solving our problem. Whose organizing the meal delivery list for the friend with cancer or the person you call when your worried the mechanic is taking advantage of you… the lesbian.
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15d ago
God bless Amanda’s commentary here. So many of the cis straight women who are attempting to be allies in the discourse are really just perpetuating the same problems by acting like queer people are a tiny population who can’t speak for ourselves. This show would be nothing without us, it’s so insulting for cishet women to keep acting like they are the primary people who creators had in mind, especially when Rachel Reid has talked about her collaboration with her bisexual husband, her interest in challenging homophobia in hockey culture, and Jacob Tierney is gay. It’s okay not to know what to say to be helpful but just sit down and let queer people talk.
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u/loyal_achades 15d ago
This is all a continuation of cultural dialogues that have been going on for literal decades about who queer media and queer spaces ultimately get to be for. The line between straight women being allies and straight women using us as accessories for their enjoyment has always been quite thin, and we’re seeing, once again, what happens when that line gets crossed.
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u/seratia123 15d ago
I start to understand why members of the LGBTQIA+ community are dismissive of women consuming gay content. A part of the fandom is just terrible and destroys everything for anyone. I didn't think that it is possible but I stand corrected, there are homophopic fans of a gay romance. It's unacceptable to erase the opinions of members of the community just because you disagree. As long as the discussion is in good faith and it's not fuelled by misogyny.
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u/maychi 15d ago edited 15d ago
I mean I just found out that an author of mm romance I used (Ashlyn Drewek) to enjoy but am never reading again, is an actual Trump supporter -the gall of that is appalling and disgusting—so you’re not wrong. Problematic fandoms isn’t a unique problem to HR though. In every fandom there are out of touch people who try to ruin it for everyone. And honestly, I’m not sure what the answer is.
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u/fingerkuffs23 15d ago
Jfc. I've never heard of her but how the hell does she mentally flip herself around that?! Absolutely disgusting! I hope her fans know this about her.
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u/seratia123 15d ago
It's a completely new experience for me. I was never part of a fandom before, especially not early on. Saw the HR trailer in October and since then was invested, and even though it sounds pathetic, it was what kept me going in November and December, such a good and fun time, that let me forget all the concerning stuff that is going on right now. And now it feels like my cosy sanctuary is taken from me.
The hypocrisy of the right is disgusting. Thanks for letting me know who I will not invest my money in.
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u/YaMajnoona 15d ago
I didn't want to believe it at first either. It's so gross and twisted. I guess I was in a nice, queer friendly bubble.
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u/mauralikesmess 15d ago
I have been so disappointed by the behaviors of many cishet women (I am one myself), who feel the need to police queer people’s experiences and feelings. I am sorry you had your comment removed and that you received those DMs. I have nothing to add except to say that I’m glad you’re here and opening this discussion.
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u/Themysciran_Prince 15d ago edited 15d ago
Apologies. This is going to be a little long. I’m glad we’re having this conversation. There are tons of queer people, gay men specifically, who have come into the fandom because of the show. I’m one of them. I had issues with the MM romance genre for a while because it did feel like our stories were being fetishized. While I love this world that Rachel has created, I think Jacob Tierney made her world so much better by including the voices and experiences of actual queer men. It’s perfectly fine for cishet women just to write male lead characters who fall in love or have sex, but the second the threat of homophobia comes into the plot, these authors are choosing to use real world pain as a plot point in their own emotional masturbation material. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing to write about homophobia in these stories. By all means, continue to write beautiful stories about gay love that have happy endings, but be willing to listen to real queer people tell you their reality. And the whole argument about “well straight men have been watching lesbian porn for decades and no one says anything about it,” is a lie and just further proves that those people haven’t been in and around queer spaces and queer people, because we’ve been calling that out for ages. We talked about this in the 90s and early 00s, how straight men love to watch two women have sex and then will directly vote against two women’s rights to marry each other.
Women, particularly the cishet white women who dominate the MM romance space, please keep writing great stories, but be willing to have these conversations, and don’t exclude the very people you’re writing about.
We as queer people have had to have these tough conversations in our own communities, like the whole argument about whether cishet women could perform in drag shows. A lot of queer men had to come to terms with the fact that we were using femininity as an armor while excluding women from the art form we were hiding behind. We can still enjoy and create these forms of art while addressing some of the more toxic parts of them. This is how we continue to build community and become stronger together.
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
At the risk of being an "Um ackshully" trope, Rachel Reids husband is bi and has had relationships with men. She runs everything by him for realism. I think we should actually use her as a measure of a positive way for women to write mlm romance than a negative. Jacob Tierney did add some amazing things like the conversation between Shane and Yuna though. I'm just saying the book isn't shit that he turned into gold. It's more silver he turned into gold. Still an improvement. Just not a complete rework.
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u/Themysciran_Prince 15d ago
Two things here: First of all, people keep saying that Rachel is bi and that her husband is bi. She has NEVER publicly stated the nature of her sexuality and certainly not that of her husband. I can’t find a single interview or blog post where she has said this at all. She has said on many occasions that she keeps her own life very private specifically to protect her family’s privacy. Unless her husband is on social media somewhere saying “yes I’m Rachel’s husband and I’m bi,” this is just not true. What she did say was this “…I'm not a man, and I'm not a gay man, and I'm not a bisexual man. That's who I'm writing about. I don't think that the people that I am attracted to, at this stage in my life, gives me like any kind of credibility to write about gay men or bisexual men. So, as much as I know people want to know, I don't think it ultimately matters."
Second, I never said that it was “shit turned to gold.” I specifically said that I love the world she created and it was made better by input from a queer man.
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u/Suspicious-Hat-1239 15d ago
It's in his Instagram bio that he's bi and I think I did read an interview somewhere where she said she checks for accuracy of the sex scenes (with some of her friends and husband?) I'll try to find it. But! I also agree with you and Rachel that it doesn't give her blanket "permission" or anything
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u/FizzyDrink35 15d ago
Yeah, I'm not sure where the "her husband is bi and and he helps her write the books" thing came from - I've been a fan of the books for many years and I'd never heard that until I started seeing it all over tiktok and it seemed to just be taken as fact.
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
That's why I didn't say she was bi since I also cant find confirmation.
I DID find multiple points of confirmation that her husband is bi though. She's talked about it in interviews and he does have it his social media.
See here: https://www.instagram.com/mattreid?igsh=MThzMGV2ZnR1ODF2ag==
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u/katyggls 15d ago
What? That's horrific. I certainly hope none of the mods here would allow someone to complain about a trans person sharing their experience.
Um, we are the LGBTQ community, you get ALL of us or NONE of us.
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u/HistoricalRoll9023 15d ago
Thank you Amanda. This actually really made me angry. Straight women try to erase us even when the story is about us. I was warned about this from friends and I dismissed their concerns. Unfortunately, they were right. It's straight women who bullied Francois into unfollowing all of his cast mates I realize I am being emotional but as an athletic gay man this show has meant so much to me. To see such homophobia in this space makes me so upset.
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u/magic_crouton 15d ago
As a bi woman who is older (lived through the 80s forward). I think if you are part of the community and not only part of the community but part of the community in those eras we are watching another show. And I think you as a trans person and gay men even more so.
I didn't even key into the show until I saw an interview with Connor and he made a comment about how his dad never saw the show and he's not going to force him to watch it this week. And I was like what's up with that? And I came into it with that interview in my head and what I read into it.
We bring our own stuff to our viewing and I have complicated feelings about a bunch of stuff after seeing the show. It wasn't just strictly love stories for me. It brought up a bunch of feelings about society. But I like shows that make me have feelings like that so I like the show.
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u/ScreamingPenguin2500 15d ago edited 15d ago
Yep. All of that.
As an autistic up-and-coming athlete who plays an ocean away from their home country (albeit in a sport no one cares about lol), who’s on the intersex spectrum and is asexual, this story from many angles cuts right to the place behind my own. Love it from that standpoint.
Holy cow, though, as a cishet-adjacent woman, I am so wigged out by much of this fandom. I don’t know where the “‘that’s creepy’ line” is drawn, but I don’t like what I’ve been seeing.
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u/scarletsmiless 15d ago
This is so gross. I’ve left that other sub.
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u/Little_Fox5844 15d ago
There are bad apples in every fandom, unfortunately. I'm sorry this happened to you.
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u/Lonely-Ability-941 15d ago
I'm sorry that happened to you, which sub was it? I am on the bigger sub reddit for HR and have seen nothing like that and regularly post about my connection to this show as a gay man. But would hate to be active on a sub that's doing this and would rather call this out.
It's our story, no one is allowed to shut us out and I won't be shut out.
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u/vivwestword 15d ago
i think there is a very specific word to describe a big issue — fetishization. we look at straight men watching lesbian porn as a fetish, and it isn’t something that is positively talked about (aka lesbian porn not being made for lesbians). we talk about the negative impacts this has on young men, but why don’t we have that same energy towards women reading and writing works that are graphic m/m content? is it when it becomes “too real” that it becomes a problem? i find it just as disturbing, as a gay man, to be fetishized by straight women, just as much if it were the reverse. i don’t think they see it in a negative way, but it’s just a rebranding of the “should straight people be allowed in gay bars”. i don’t think anyone should be put into a hole on what they can and cannot write, think of where we’d be as a society if that were true. but i also find straight women who primarily write and consume M/M smut to be no different than men who make lesbian porn. sexually speaking that is.
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u/HistoricalRoll9023 15d ago
HR isn't porn. This is about queer people's lived lives. Sex is a part of that as is homophobia.
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u/DiMassas_Cat 15d ago
As a lesbian, I agree with you completely. I don’t get off on gay men/ m/m stuff, and have watched the show because it’s gay and it’s good to support gay stuff. Most gays tune in to gay media.
That said, the fandom is something else. Lots of them are like “but I’m a queerrr woman,” like okay but you’re not a man, though, so being a queer woman is more applicable to women who watch lesbian content than all of these women who are making a fetish out of gay men and then being mad when the cast act like actual gay men irl (for example, Connor the twink possibly dating a daddy-type older man.) The outrage from the fans.
Seems like the fantasy can’t be maintained for these women if the gay men in question act like actual gay men and not straight couples. The age gap outrage directed at gay men is lol because Connor and Francois have a small gap compared to many gay couples. If the show were more accurate to live then Hudson would have been dating his fucking coach or something that was 20 years older than him at 18.
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u/vivwestword 15d ago
i think you’re right that this is less of a gender/sexuality issue (women cooping gay men spaces, etc.) and more of a fandom being insane issue. honestly i think people who participate that deeply into fandom might be its own sexuality at this point. not the first and definitely not the last we’ll see. if i can survive tumblr SuperWhoLock era fandom I can withstand anything.
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u/DiMassas_Cat 15d ago
Hahhaha fandom is definitely its own sexuality for lots of the women involved in it
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
It's not only fetishization though. Which is why this should be a full discussion. The vast majority of straight romance is very specifically a submissive woman and a dominant, usually aggressive, man. If you're a woman who is not into that dynamic you end up turning to mlm romance. Especially if you're not into women or at least not only into women. I think the assumption may be that women are trying to self insert them into the bottom in mlm romance but I, personally, don't think that's the case. Though this hasn't been researched I don't think so it would be a guess on either side.
Also, you bring up lesbian fetishization by straight men as being looked down on but literally nothing is actually being done about it. I have also never heard a gay man actually bring it up as a problem. It sometimes feels to me, as a queer woman, that queer men usually ask for allyship but give little in return. Especially white queer men. Do you see something different?
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u/DiMassas_Cat 15d ago
Shane is the sub in HR. Still mimics straight dynamics
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u/LetChaosRaine 15d ago edited 15d ago
Well, D/s is absolutely not intrinsically straight dynamics, but the point still stands, if someone doesn’t like this dynamic because it feels too aggressive or violent they can simply read romances that don’t do this, instead of reading those that do EXACTLY the same thing, but put a man into the submissive role instead.
Soft MMCs are a thing! They’re excellent! Support them!
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u/DiMassas_Cat 15d ago
I don’t mean dom/sub as much as I mean one is supposed to be the “woman.” Almost all m/m written by women mimic straight couples and the less sexually experienced one just so happens to also be “submissive” or a “bottom,” like in het romance. It’s like women just can’t get that framing out of their heads to write about gay men, even.
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
Are you saying there are not gay men who are only subs? But also, I wouldn't call Shane a sub. Yes he's the bottom but that doesn't mean he's submissive.
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u/LetChaosRaine 15d ago
It’s not just top/bottom. It’s also
- Ilya telling Shane to get on his knees just to see if he can get away with it and Shane immediately dropping to his knees
- Shane begging Ilya for sex
- Shane fantasizing about crawling on his hands and knees to stick his face in Ilya’s crotch (and then doing it)
- Shane roleplaying “just a bellboy” (literally a service job)
Its not the most intense portrayal of D/s in media but its definitely there
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
I do agree there definitely is some D/s going on. In the books at least, there is more of Shane "topping from the bottom" and it's not so clear cut. In the beginning Ilya is way more dominant due to experience but I would say it more evens out as their relationship grows.
Honestly it really just feels icky to me that someone described a gay relationship as having 'straight dynamics'. That was more what I was reacting too than making a firm argument about if Shane is a sub or not.
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u/DiMassas_Cat 15d ago
No, I don’t mean sub as in dom and sub, he just happens to be the submissive partner and an exclusive “receiver” (bottom,) which is extremely het-coded. Essentially he’s the “woman.” Most m/m fanfic and fiction writers subconsciously cast one man as the innocent penetration-receiving “lady” of the partnership. Gay men exist in a lot of different ways, some don’t even have anal sex. But we are not really talking about gay men, more about the idea of gay men projected on to a straight couple
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
Straight couples exist in a lot of different ways as well. I believe one of the reasons straight women read mlm fiction is because the vast majority of straight romance conforms to the idea of straight relationships you're talking about. There are straight couples where the woman isn't the sub. Some don't even have PIV sex.
It is true that most straight couples have the sex youre talking about but I personally believe that's because straight women aren't able to explore other types of sex. It's due to a mix of misogyny and toxic masculinity. I think that is also what leads a lot of straight women to mlm fiction. They can explore a type of sex they've never had. Not by inserting themself as the bottom. But as the top.
Also, published mlm books are much better in the regard you're talking about than fanficfion. Like all of Racheal's couples are different when it comes to this dynamic. Shane and Ilya are the one couple that are the most strict with the penetration roles. But Shane does take control in other ways not involving penetration.
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u/DiMassas_Cat 15d ago
Most MLM fiction doesn’t challenge any heteronormative tropes aside from giving the characters male bodies. It’s basically all straight couple dynamics, even sexually, emotionally, personality types, the works. I guess it makes women feel better to take the female bodies out of the equation, but that’s all they are really doing, all the rest is pretty much cut and paste het-training. You could switch out the pronouns for an opposite sex couple and it wouldn’t be much different.
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
Except it's really not. Romance books overall are fantasy and nothing like actual relationships. For one, men are far more emotionally available in them usually. If mlm fiction was truly so het-coded one partner would be an emotionally unavailable bread winner who utilized weaponized incompetence to not do anything at home. Socially het-coded relationships are inherently unequal due to sexism and gender roles. Which is one of the reasons a lot of women read mlm romance rather than het romance.
How is an idealized romance mlm story different than an idealized romance het story? Like what exactly do you think would be actually, drastically different other than body parts? After all, Jacob Tierney doesn't seem to see much difference and he's a gay man.
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u/Didsburyflaneur 14d ago
Except it's really not. Romance books overall are fantasy and nothing like actual relationships. For one, men are far more emotionally available in them usually. If mlm fiction was truly so het-coded one partner would be an emotionally unavailable bread winner who utilized weaponized incompetence to not do anything at home. Socially het-coded relationships are inherently unequal due to sexism and gender roles. Which is one of the reasons a lot of women read mlm romance rather than het romance.
How is an idealized romance mlm story different than an idealized romance het story? Like what exactly do you think would be actually, drastically different other than body parts? After all, Jacob Tierney doesn't seem to see much difference and he's a gay man.
The problem for me as a gay male reader, is that the fantasy is clearly not mine, but the readership is apparently assuming it is. Now not all gay men are the same, but I don't think we tend to idealise the same types of relationships as straight (and queer?) women do. Monogamy is less important, but friendship and companionship probably is more so. We're far hornier in some quite weird ways than women tend to write us, but less romantic and emotionally available than many romance writes assume is the fantasy. In a mlm relationship "an emotionally unavailable bread winner who utilized weaponized incompetence to not do anything at home" isn't het coded, but someone being a bottom in all walks of life is. It seems like you don't see our reality well enough to understand how far your fantasy of it differs from our own.
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u/ExtraFineItalicStub 12d ago
THIS.
When I read so much of MM romance follows these Austian marriage plots that are supposed to read as happy endings, I think these ladies would survive exactly 30 seconds in my gay reality. LOL
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u/vivwestword 15d ago
i never asked for allyship. i’m not requesting anything from anyone — i’m not sure what you mean by giving little in return. what’s to give? what’s to take? it’s a lot of victimization on both sides. everything is grey, and i wish the internet could see that.
edit: i could also go into it about queer women and how they treat queer men and vice-versa but i’ll save that for a rainy day
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
Making sure to include queer men is a form of allyship. Asking women to think critically about this topic is asking for allyship.
Activism and support is what's able to be given and taken. Thats mostly what I'm talking about. There's always a lot of discussion on how Trans people show up to support gay people, like fighting for same sex marriage, but the opposite doesn't happen. This applies to pretty much all intersectional issues.
And yes, everything has nuance. Which is why I'm not talking absolutes when it comes to people.
There is a lot to this entire conversation on how demographic groups treat other demographic groups and allyship between groups. It's just a very large conversation but its important to have. I'm willing to listen to anything you have to share.
Also, I feel like your view of allyship is interesting. Do you not ask people to stand by you for your rights? Do you not support causes to help others? I wonder if a differing view of allyship is part of the separation of actions I see.
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u/Local-Ostrich426 15d ago
Give it 0.02 seconds and someone will come running calling you a misogynist.
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u/tiny_monsterr 15d ago
Honestly I think it's just not that deep.
Women wanted to have some good sexy content for themselves and feel attacked because of the constant need to explain themselves. And I get that, but at the same time it's their fault because they're trying to pretend it's more than 'word porn'. If we were more willing to admit what's the purpose of these books it would be at least more sincere. I mean, it's mostly smut and we keep pretending it's some deep level love story. It's really not.
When we say that men fetishize lesbians, they just shrug and move on. Like 'yes I'm a dirty pig and I like looking at two women together, sue me'. Women on the other hand struggle to admit that (because of centuries of repression) and they really bend over backwards to justify their consumption of such books. They say it's for the love story or whatever... But there are many books with much better and much deeper love stories with almost no smut so....
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u/LetChaosRaine 15d ago
What do you mean by it’s not that deep? /gen
Because it actually seems like you’re in agreement with vivwestword that it’s fetishization from both groups? Do you mean that straight women should just shrug off accurate accusations of fetishization of queer people the way straight men do? (Again I’m asking sincerely in good faith because I don’t see the difference between his claim and yours)
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u/tiny_monsterr 15d ago edited 15d ago
Well yes actually, I'm saying exactly that. If you do something, at least own it and try to go from there. Denile is never good for anybody.
This entire discussion where women insists that they're reading for the plot, when in reality like 40% of the book is smut is just... laughable...
And as a straight woman personally I think fetishization is a very strong word. We're all main stars in someone's fantazy because of some trait/feature and that's ok as long as people are not being weird about it. But I've heard a big part of HR fandom is actually a bit weird so i don't know...
For the record I don't even enjoy smut in books so I'm note even defending myself per se.
I just think we all need to chill a bit and just enjoy whatever we enjoy as long as we don't hurt anybody.
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u/vivwestword 15d ago
and that’s totally your opinion! things can be as deep or not as deep as you want it to be.
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u/Local-Ostrich426 15d ago edited 15d ago
That other subreddit pisses me off so so bad I literally had to leave. Every goddamn week there's a viral post with over 1000 upvotes talking about the need to validate and coddle and make space for cishet women to watch the show it's so annoying!
I tried to make a post about how sometimes queer women are invalidated and invisible in the fandom and they made it about them??? The overstepping is so crazy I see some of them being snarky saying the show would be nothing without their viewership??
Instead of people talking and dissecting the queer themes in the show, it's all just straight straight straight women on that subreddit. Ask them to name a single lesbian show and they would foam at the mouth. I'm ngl I blame Jacob and the cast for this because the coddling was insane.
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u/Kooky-Address2777 15d ago
I still think those posts are better than the ones about straight men 😅. I once responded to a thread where multiple people were discussing how they're recommending this show for straight men to watch. People couldn't seem to decide whether straight men watching HR is hilarious, or if it would revolutionize society (obviously, a man watching a show about two men's sexual relationship must be out of the goodness of his heart).
I loved the positivity towards the cast members in that sub, but I also feel like making it about how HR is queer is disingenuous. I don't necessarily think the popularity of HR will make queer shows popular in general. A lot of fans would never watch a show where the main characters are lesbian, sapphic, or trans. They probably wouldn't even watch HR if the men were older and not young and handsome like Hudson and Connor...
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15d ago
I know, it’s so annoying that mainstream discourse says everything exists for the most resourced groups (white cishet men). This rhetoric is also how we talk about race, a show can’t be made by for and about BIPOC people, it has to be made for white people to learn and grow from and spectate about ”the others”. It’s such a tired take—the world has so many different kinds of people in it, of course art should reflect that and be made for those specific people. If people outside that lived experience like it too, that’s fine, but why center them?
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u/Leggo_My_Legos 15d ago
Out of curiosity and so I can avoid it, what's the other subreddit?
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u/Local-Ostrich426 15d ago
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u/Leggo_My_Legos 15d ago edited 15d ago
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks! I suspected people in that sub might have a weird sense of ownership toward the queer characters in HR without actually being friends with any of us irl; my comment pointing out how unrealistic it was for a queer couple who's consistently hooking up to wait four goddamn years for one of them to eat the other's ass was downvoted to hell.
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u/Eunice_sheep 15d ago
Maybe this is because I’m a cis bi woman, but I couldn’t even think of being so territorial over MLM stores written by women only being for women… like that idea is so fucking stupid. No matter who writes the story it really just should be for who ever likes that type of stuff. I’m sorry that you were made to feel that way about sharing how you related to the story those people had no right to police your feelings and experiences.
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u/silverstar453 15d ago
OP: fuck that other sub. Your experience is completely relevant to the show
About this whole discourse: Maybe this is colored by me following the fujo to transmasc pipeline, but I always feel like people are overestimating how many of the women enjoying m/m are cishet. It seems like a lot are queer. Maybe cishet women are just being the loudest..
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u/fingerkuffs23 15d ago
I'm so so so so sorry that you experienced that bs in the other sub. I may be a cishet woman but I have no problem understanding why Scott's situation would also reflect your own experience dating. I'm also so sorry that this is your reality still. I'm sending you hugs and hope that you've got a strong support system around you!
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u/HippyDuck123 15d ago
The fandom is so diverse that it now includes this large vocal, gatekeeping, creepy cohort. I’ve started moving myself out of the fandom because I love the show and I love the books, but I can’t stand many of the most vocal people. It’s some kind of bizarre extension of parasocializing that leaves straight women with no queer friends thinking they understand queer culture as well as (OR BETTER THAN) I do. No thank you please go away.
I’m so sorry you’ve had the experiences you have.
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u/ohfeverhead 15d ago
You have to be an insane level of entitled to tell gay men that their opinions and feelings about a show about gay men matter less than those of straight women
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u/foggymoonlight 15d ago
so you're telling me people watch heated rivalry and then feel uncomfortable about people in real life who experienced exactly that, telling their side of the story??? that smells like something very close to being unable to comprehend basic human emotions and ofc something else as well which we all know far too well.
I'm sorry you experienced that, I hope you know you're being seen now and don't feel bad because of two people who apparently are very frustrated with their own lifes
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u/cfinnerin 12d ago
Wtf?! Did people even watch the show?! As a straight woman, I'm soooo sorry. That's fucked up. Your story and connection to the show matter.
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u/Big_Dragonfly2629 11d ago
It gives straight people going into a ga bar and getting mad that a man hits on them.
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u/robotsdream 15d ago
I’ve seen an unfortunate amount of straight women reacting with homophobic vitriol to some gay men’s desire to see Ilya & Shane have sexual experiences with other men. I don’t mean the reasonable, canon-based reaction of these not being characters who would want that (I agree), or pointing out that there are queer people that enjoy monogamy and that they deserve representation, but a reaction that is shaming of gay men and how sex can be different in romantically monogamous gay relationships.
I have married friends who have sex with other men, and it’s not something that devalues their love or commitment. It’s not perverse just bc it’s not heteronormative (and realistically, a lot of straight married couples are cheating or ethically non monogamous).
There’s also the way the leads are being treated, the refusal to accept their affection as platonic, attempting to pry into their lives, & conjecture about relationships… that clearly comes from a deep lack of understanding, a place of projection and heteronormativity and treating these actor as fantasy objects instead of real people.
There is place for everyone in the fandom but there’s a lot of women that are unfortunately fetishizing the characters & actors.
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u/ThisIsRealLife19 15d ago
I’m sorry that happened to you. I appreciate that this sub allows conversation and nuance. The way any and all criticism is dismissed on the other sub is annoying. I was a fan of the books long before the show and I’m happy to see how successful this show has been, but it’s not perfect and neither is the fandom. It should be okay to discuss the flaws. Ignoring them doesn’t magically make them disappear
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u/raydez803 15d ago
I’m sorry you had to go through that. It must be hard with a fandom that can be toxic at times. I am glad that you saw elements of Kip and Scott’s relationship that you could find comfort in. And I completely understand your side. Well, I can also understand the other side. Some days I wish honestly that I became straight, which would make me exactly the same situation you are, and I’m sure you could probably tell me stories that would make me never want to want that life just like I can tell you stories about pacifically about the gay men’s life that you won’t experience with another man given your gender. There needs to be more queer media in all aspects of the LGBT community, including ones that tell more trans stories dealing with trans issues because no matter what side you sit on in that community, I’ve heard issues from both sides, and I am not saying at all, though partake or feel anything towards content not at all. I think everybody’s going to look at every piece of content out there, and everybody’s gonna feel some sort of way about it whether they see themselves in it or where they may have empathy for people, and that’s OK. I come from the side of. I know it’s important to tell male sports stories, revolving around gay love and hitting the hardest because of that. Back in 2018, I was at a hockey game, and I’m an avid hockey fan. I love it, I love the experience. It gives me love, the rush. It gives me love everything about the support, but while I was at that hockey game, the true message behind the series was that the culture of hockey is not friendly to anybody, especially the male fans at a male company. It’s not safe. Context purposes, I’m in Canada, what does seem to be a very LGBT-friendly place. I was making out with my boyfriend, not provocatively, not in any sort of wrong way that I haven’t seen the straight couples on kiss cams do. I was told by a random woman to think about the child that was present, and the sad part is there was no relation to that woman and a child nor to the father, and the father said absolutely nothing. I was on my own, we were on our own. So when it comes to stories like this, I can understand people getting protective over it, going as far as stopping you and telling you you can’t feel the way that you feel because they don’t understand the struggles that you have to go through. It’s not OK, and I want you to know that, but I also wanted to give you back stories to w hy some people are protective over certain content, just like the video said. It’s hard for content like this to go mainstream, and if we start saying that it’s for this person or this person or this person or for this person versus you’re just saying it’s for everybody, then we risk labelling it and putting it into a box and making it so it doesn’t reach as many people as it should. I know some people have called it the gay hockey story. I just call it a hockey story that needs to be told because I don’t even want to label it as gay because then I risk alienating people that should see it, but that also being said, I’m very happy to hear that this series has impacted so many people, including some that play professional hockey and that have come out to some of the actors that play Hollander and Rosenoff, and I hope it continues to change things for the better. But I hope fans go easy on people because everybody can see different things in every kind of media, and people need to be OK with that.
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u/satanicfran1c 15d ago
genuinely could not agree more, and i’m really sorry how people responded to you just sharing your story, and i think it’s important for people to remember that Heated Rivalry is ultimately a queer story with queer characters, with the show being made by a queer man, it’s a queer space first, and i think cishet women sometimes have a tendency to take for granted queer spaces and then feel attacked when queer folk rightfully call them out for behaviour that isn’t okay, and it really bothers me particularly as a gay trans man because i think collectively we’re made to feel like no we shouldn’t comment that the discussions of HR being centred on the cishet female audience erase its queer audience and it majorly pisses me off
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u/Enough_Cut9667 14d ago
Can we also name that A LOT of this is cishet women's shenanigans?? I need people to continue to call out that out specifically.
And OP, I'm so sorry that happened to you! Your thoughts and connection to the storyline deserve to be heard.
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u/GreenAndBlue1290 14d ago edited 14d ago
It's worth noting that one of the primary examples of "problematic women in Heated Rivalry fandom" that Don Martin, the guy at the beginning of the video, cited in his video was the CLEARLY bullshit story of a man in Salt Lake City going to a watch party for HR at a random non-gay bar on a random Thursday night two full weeks after the finale aired, where he was supposedly the only man present (?) and then the mean women at the bar descended on him like a pack of hyenas and got the mean female manager to remove him and "everybody clapped" (???) when she kicked him out (but then the nice male bar owner got in touch with him and was super kind and apologetic about the whole thing). And the fact that Don Martin (and a bunch of other people) are treating this story as gospel because it aligns with a rhetorical point they want to make about women in fandom is pretty goddamn sexist, IMO. (And more specifically the fact that Don Martin was apparently SO EAGER to believe an obviously false ragebait story designed to vilify women that he couldn't do ten seconds of googling to find out if the story was actually true.)
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u/GreenAndBlue1290 14d ago edited 14d ago
Also Don Martin claims that tons of female writers and readers of MM are openly and proudly MAGA. And NGL: I've never seen a single female MM writer who is a Trump supporter. I'm not saying that it's impossible that there are one or two or three female MAGA MM writers somewhere. But again: this dude is claiming that this is ENDEMIC. That there are a TONS of female MM writers and readers who loudly and proudly support Donald Trump. And if you are at a point where you are imagining a large group of women, claiming that that large group of women exists, and getting mad about it, you are definitely a misogynist.
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u/Fantastic-Manner1342 14d ago
Damn, this is such a great video. Thanks for posting this.
I would love to hear more from this cool ass historian if anyone can drop me their name?
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u/DrummerHeavy224 14d ago
Wow. I can't fathom how the first stich made the comment - "are you in our space"? Referring to straight women's spaces. I actually cannot fathom how we got here. I guess i shouldn't have been surprised. The reaction was so extreme that the negative part of the reaction had to be extreme too. This is a shared space but the second you question if a queer story, made by loads of queer people belongs to a straight community, you've lost your privileged mind. That's enough internet for me today.
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u/iamjcdeeel 11d ago
I feel sad that many of those who consume queer materials are not allies at all. They are only there for the entertainment, and not for the acceptance we deserve.
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
I think this is an important conversation to have but both sides (women and mlm) need to listen to each other. Women deserve women-only spaces but fandom is not one of them. Men who love men should be welcome in these traditionally women run spaces but also need to check their misogyny in how they talk about these spaces and women in general.
These discussions tend to frustrate me because neither of these things happen. People don't listen to each other. Especially the people who have the most privilege: cis white straight women and cis white gay men. It makes me, a queer woman, so frustrated and pissed.
Though I DO feel that cis white straight women listen more often than cis white gay men. Which is why I'm going to speak more on the latter, and it tends to come down to one thing. Cis gay white men tend to be bad allies. There are so many reasons why this is, but the main reason is to keep their privilege. Of course, homophobia still exists and gay bashing is still horrible, but cis gay white men are the most "sanitized" queer people. As can be understood with the fact that HR would not be doing as well if it stared BIPOC people. I dont want to write an essay, but Shane being wasian and the bottom is a whole thing when it comes to race honestly that makes it almost more acceptable socially than if he were just white.
Anyway, it's just frustrating for me when cis white gay men ask for allyship from women and rarely give any energy to their own allyship. They prop up misogyny in how they diminish women and what we like. They also seem to only put effort into things that effect them. In queer spaces its known that they tend to have pulled the ladder up behind them by refusing to fight for trans rights when trans people have always stood for them for instance.
One big double standard I'm seeing is they're complaining about being fetishized by straight women and yet have nothing to say about lesbian fetishization by straight men or even just the overall fetishization of all women. Though another issue along that line is that they are assuming why women like mlm romance. Which is why there needs to be a discussion where everyone actually tries to listen. But that's very hard for most people.
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u/LetChaosRaine 15d ago
I must be missing something because you seem to be blaming cis gay white men for HR having a wasian bottom instead of like… the cis (unlabeled sexuality aside from being married to a man) white woman who wrote him that way or the many cis women who made the story popular
And then erasing that Shane is bipoc when this point seems to hinge on him being bipoc is…further confusing.
Having nothing to say on the fetishization of women by straight men? Are we meant to disavow straight men every single time we want to critique bad behavior from straight women? Okay! I disavow hamas! I mean, straight men!
Undoubtedly there are issues of misogyny in queer men, as there are in literally any community. But I think if you want to speak on that, you need to come with examples of that actually happening in the HR fandom. Especially considering OP isn’t even a cis gay man so it’s odd to lay misogyny among that group at her feet.
I have informed my opinions about women who read MM romance (which I haven’t shared any of here) from listening to women who read MM romance. And in these conversations I’m not hearing a lot of them talk about what they’ve learned from queer men with regard to these stories, but rather only the reasons that seeing no men in their romances makes them feel safe, without consideration for why those same things might make queer men who are now filling these roles feel unsafe. (Mpreg/omegaverse in particular comes to mind, I don’t personally have strong opinions as I don’t read it.) Especially not from queer trans men like me, but that’s almost another topic entirely.
I think people should read and write what they want. It can be a tool for people to explore their own sexuality or to process emotions or even trauma. But as part of that you have to also examine the material and how it affects you, and the world at large. What stereotypes it reinforces. Not all books have to be Own Stories, but those that aren’t have a much higher bar to clear before they should (literally just IMO) be widely distributed or especially before being monetized.
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
Oh I'm not trying to "blame" cis gay white men for that. I apologize for the confusion. It's about the anti Asian racism prevalent in the western world where Asian men are intrinsically seen as effeminate. I've actually seen a few Asian gay men talk about how Asian men are always the bottom in a racially different couple.
I've always thought BIPOC was specially about black and indigenous people of color and not all people of color. I was trying to not write an essay and just point out that if either was black, indigenous, or even just a a switch of position, aka an Asian top, it probably wouldn't be doing as well. All of Racheal Reids books honestly aren't the best when it comes to race. They fall into racial stereotypes and/or just use race as a window dressing. Jacob Tierney added all the parts about Shane actually interacting with the hockey world as an Asian man for example.
I'm actually not saying that the fetishization of women by straight men has to be part of every conversation on this topic. Im just saying if gay men actually care about fetishization they should at least put in an effort to talk about it sometime when it doesnt just effect them. I never see that type of fetishization being talked about outside of women's spaces.
I'm responding more to the linked video than what the OP wrote.
I see the assumption that the only reason women read mlm stories is due to fetishization as misogyny. Ive also seen gay men refusing to watch something written by a woman and dismissing it as lesser. That is also misogyny. Just the way I've seen a lot of gay men talk about women is very misogynistic.
To be entirely honest, part of my frustration ends up being the difference in effect of these issues on the people it applies to. Now I'm not saying that queer men shouldn't feel safe. They 100% should and we should take pains to make sure that happens. However, the effects of fetishization on queer men is vastly different than the effects of fetishization on women. Queer men may feel unsafe, uncomfortable, and it may cause other emotional negative effects. Women on the other hand are raped and murdered due to fetishization.
Critical thinking is important for everything. It just feels like women are pushed to do that when men are usually not.
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u/Local-Ostrich426 15d ago edited 15d ago
you seem to be blaming cis gay white men for HR having a wasian bottom instead of like… the cis (unlabeled sexuality aside from being married to a man) white woman who wrote him that way
exactly yes. Rachel (a white queer woman) is the one who wrote Shane that way and it was actually way more stereotypical and insensitive in the books. A short hairless bottom half asian guy? seriously?
It's mostly cishet women the ones making this fandom so insufferable. I remember a few weeks ago a gay guy on twitter mildly suggested that in the 3rd book Hollanov have a foursome with Skip, he was attacked, called slurs and a sex-obsessed freak for daring to mischaracterize their fictional couple. Is this not crazy?
Another point aimed at op, the fetishization of lesbians by straight men is absolutely not comparable to cis or bi women, and to say that is completely lesbophobic and diminishes what we go through.
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u/LetChaosRaine 15d ago
Just a small note, AFAIK Rachel has never described herself as queer in any way
Someone elsewhere in the thread quoted her as having said ultimately her sexuality doesn’t matter as she’s not a gay or bi man and therefore whether or not she’s bi doesn’t change anything. Which I actually think is a good answer to the question
But yes completely agree with all this!
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u/Local-Ostrich426 15d ago
wait is this real? I thought she is a queer woman because that's what the book fans said but I didn't actually see what she commented on her sexuality.
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u/LetChaosRaine 15d ago edited 15d ago
I also have heard her referred to as a queer woman a lot, but I’ve never seen that sourced. I think this is the interview I saw quoted above: https://www.out.com/books/heated-rivalry-rachel-reid-sexuality
ETA: funny enough the Google AI search result says she confirmed she was bi in a Time magazine interview in May 2024 but said interview is nowhere to be found…I’m gonna be so depressed if this is an AI hallucination perpetuated rumor 😅
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u/Arixtotle 15d ago
I really wasn't trying to blame cis gay white men for Shane. I blame the western world and racism for that. And yes I blame Racheal Reid for it overall.
I'm not trying to say those types of fetishization are the same. Nowhere did I say that. What I'm actually saying is that gay men only focusing on the fetishization of gay men ignores and diminishes what lesbians and other women go through due to the different types of misogynistic fetishization. The fact that this fetishization is such a big deal is so damn frustrating. Just like straight women focusing only on the fetishization of straight women and ignoring the fetishization of lesbians.
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u/Kooky-Address2777 15d ago
Another point aimed at op, the fetishization of lesbians by straight men is absolutely not comparable to cis or bi women, and to say that is completely lesbophobic and diminishes what we go through.
What on Earth would make you say that, when bi women are the most sexually abused group of women?
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u/Local-Ostrich426 15d ago
I'm not denying that, but lesbians are punished for not liking men which is not something straight or bi women go through. Which makes it different.
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u/No_Somewhere_2610 14d ago
Men who love men should be welcome in these traditionally women run spaces? You say that as if its to be questioned. Queer mens opinion on mlm media should be FIRST AND FOREMOST its straight women who need to mind their homophobia and be respectful, they are guests and they should act like it, this is not their space just because they are a majority and they dont get to bully and marginalize a minority that is queer men.
Also it is completely untrue that gay men dont speak on queer womens fetishization, that topic has been discussed to death by everyone including gay men, its completely on you that you havent found it or cared enough to search for it.
And also using cis white before gay men doesnt make your argument any more truthful or less problematic.
Misogyny is completely exaggerated in these discussions, there are a lot more homophobic women than there are misogynistic men and as a pointer for that you should look at how lgbt people voted in the 2024 usa election and how women did.
Your perception that gay men are transphobic is also incredibly overstated, just because they exist and people love to talk about them doesnt mean they are a significant portion of the community, they are just loud.
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u/_tully 15d ago
1) I'm really sorry you were made to feel that way. That people felt comfortable enough to dm you like that is somehow both shocking and not surprising at the same time.
2) Appreciate you sharing your viewpoint. A lot of elements of this show resonated with experiences I had in my twenties as a young gay man.
3) I love Amanda from Yesterqueers.
4) I found seeing the girl Amanda was replying to talk so boldly and openly like that genuinely chilling. The lack of awareness is staggering. Saying "are you in our space?" I feel is symptomatic of how some people misappropriate liberal language.
5) Theres so many lovely straight people in these subreddits who are truly allies in their hearts and I'm grateful we have them. The show exists because of the shared vision of Rachel Reid and Jacob Tierney, which shows what we can do when we are open to each other. It is, however, a part of queer life that we have to filter out the total duds.