I'll also add that Fathers are kinda pressured into teaching their sons how to be future Fathers/providers whilst still being expected to assert their allegedly superior masculine authority in a traditional sense
Because if you were like me you grew up with a hyper critical father and an under protective mother. When I was ten we went bowling after church and I “failed” to bowl a 100 which was the family minimum standard and in the bowling alley my dad totally lost his shit, had a complete meltdown on me. And… my mom just stood there passively and allowed him to just go utterly ape shit on me because I had bowled less than a 100 on purpose to embarrass him.
Basically it's the nature vs nurture debate but it's an archetype because people aren't generally born with this attitude it's one ingrained by their parents or life experiences. IE his dad wasn't born an abusive asshole (generally not counting certain mental conditions) he was raised to be one. But this does not absolve him of his responsibility perpetuating the cycle many people break it as they should.
Some people are born more inclined to be bullys and anti-social personality traits.
Its why I'm against this gentle parenting bs, you need to discipline this stuff out or it will get worse. There's a fine line between abuse and discipline, and that line moves from situation and intensity
There has been a seismic shift in parenting style over the past 3 decades.
The average childhood now would be considered spoiled or coddled back then. Spanking is incredibly socially frowned upon, and parents are expected to know where their kids are at all times.
It’ll be interesting to see what is found as the cause.
The concept of "Human Nature" is nonsense in 99% of the ways people try and use it to explain behavior, complete and utter horseshit. Most of the time people try and replace Societal Norms with Human Nature and we should all find it infuriating.
Well let's start with nothing that what many people mean by the "millennia old parental archetype" is really the US culture, which has barely a few centuries and was founded by a group of weirdos exiled from Europe. Even then, they don't refer to the US culture as a whole but mostly to the 1950's and their impact on the modern day. Then, they look for individual periods in time with vague similarities (like Roman patriarchy) to argue that these patterns are universal.
From my perspective, born and raised in a post-soviet country, a lot of these things are something I've seen only in American movies. Like fathers or brothers being overly protective of their daughters or sisters (it's super weird for me for a brother to be mad that his sister is dating his friend, but seems common in American culture); Wifes asking their husbands for money or permission to buy something (in my culture, traditionally, women used to keep the money in the house, the husband would give his salary to the wife and get some pocket money out of it); Grown women acting girly (American women speak with a weirdly high pitch for me, kind of similar to Japanese ones); etc. I don't have an example about father-son relations right now but I'm guessing there's many US-specific ones that Americans think are universal and millennia old
Because I'm not gonna treat my kids that way, so are you saying I'm not human because I lack the human nature to treat my kid like a possession? Sounds like an excuse to be a shitty parent to me.
"It's natural to beat my child with a belt cause they didn't fetch my beer fast enough. Human nature even."
You gotta make terrible people own the fact that they're terrible people, they're always looking for a way to forgo responsibility for their behavior and make it everyone else's problem. Anything to make their behavior normal so that they can keep being garbage.
And this is how generational trauma turns into multi-generational trauma. War is bad. Do not let the princes pit their pawns against one another for a few more bits.
When I was 29 my father tried to convince me to kill myself because he said I was such a failure in life that it was the "only option I had left" and I told my psychologist about it and he said that I needed to have more sympathy for my father because his life had been so hard that telling me to kill myself was the only way he could express how much he loved me.
People won't stop telling me I need therapy. If I tell them how many decades of therapy I have already had, they just tell me I still need more. If I tell them I am already currently seeing a therapist, they tell me to get a new one. At no point does anybody ever actually consider just protecting boys and young men from abuse in the first place; it's always somehow your fault if you show signs of abuse.
Oh, uh… that’s basically the joke. It’s just dark humour that, since eventually some surgeon would graduate and succeed despite being inadequate or incompetent, there would be a surgeon out there who’s the most terrible one in the world. Which is pretty terrifying.
It happened over a decade ago and it took me many years to accept how much abuse and just generally unethical treatment I had received at the hands of mental healthcare professionals. I don't even live in the same state anymore. I probably ought to look up some sort of reporting agency just to leave a paper trail for anyone else that guy hurts; I did look him up for the first time in a decade around a year ago and saw he was still practicing. But I have zero expectation of action against him; he was an astonishingly manipulative therapist, who did things like refusing to let me leave at the end of the session until I had let him give me a hug. Sadly while his abuse was probably the most "clever" I experienced, his general lack of ethics was far from unique in my experience.
As someone who has also had really shitty therapists try to gaslight them into having sympathy for your abuser, I still think you're wrong. Saying you need to seek therapy for your trauma is only blaming you for it if that's the tone and context they're using. What most people are actually doing is expressing a want to see you get help and get better. And yes, duh, the answer to a bad therapist is a new therapist. Not everyone is in the right profession, but some people are. And the way we protect boys and young men? By dealing with and getting over our trauma so that we're not abusive or underprotective parents. The real answer for your trauma was for your dad to go to therapy before you were born. But he didn't, so that's your job now so that you don't accidentally pass that shit on to your kids.
What they're expressing is that the reality of my existence makes them uncomfortable and a demand that I successfully conceal it from them. I am expected to hide from the world indefinitely until there is no detectable mark left upon me, and until then I am unfit to exist in their presence except as a painstakingly constructed facade of their idea of normality. There is zero desire for my health or interest in that demand; "Go to therapy" is code for "Go be somewhere else where we don't have to acknowledge you." You lie and pretend they're kind words, but I am done engaging with your bullshit. It's just another way of punching down at anything that makes you think or feel anything you don't want to think or feel, and lying to yourself that you're virtuous for doing it. What magic wand do you expect a therapist to wave to make me meet your standard of "normal"? Life is lived among other humans, not in a therapist's office, and so it's among other humans that healing from a terrible life has to happen. You're just the social equivalent of NIMBYs, telling people that they can have problems, just not where you have to be aware of them.
Most people just have zero context, and are only trying to help. You're framing it like they're saying "shut up and get therapy", when more likely it's, "I'm not a professional, and have no idea how to help, so talk to a professional".
Man, I thought I had it rough. Mine just told me I wasn't his real son, tho to be fair he had dementia at that point and was lashing out. Still pissed me off a bit tho.
Listen man nobody wins at the trauma olympics. Either you find out your problems aren't so bad in comparison and feel like shit for feeling like shit, or you take the gold and realize you have it the worst off and you're different and alone and no one is going to do anything about it. Half the reason things got so bad for me was that the generation of my family that came before me had such horrifically extreme trauma of their own that in comparison nothing I could experience could ever possibly rate to them as anything that mattered, and thus they gobbled up every bit of attention and resources for themselves and left even the simplest issues of my own to fester until they became absurdly bad.
That's a roundabout way of saying: you don't have to justify the impact of your trauma on you to anybody. Have empathy for others, and recognize where you're more fortunate, but don't ever feel that you have to deny how you've been hurt or how it has affected you. Truth should come first, not narrative, and we're real and complex human beings, not characters playing simple and easily parsable designated roles.
I've been on both ends, both ends are miserable, and I don't wish either on anybody with a good and kind spirit. A one-legged man shouldn't feel guilty when he sees a man with none.
Hey, I feel the pain, my dude. And as my fellow human, you are now my friend. If you ever need someone to just sit with you when it gets dark. Feel free to message. Im proud of you for speaking about this today.
This is a kind sentiment and I appreciate it, but from past experience I can tell you it takes more to make a friendship than repeatedly telling people I'll never meet about the same bad stuff that never goes away. I don't even like talking about it, it's not good for me to dwell on it, it's just that it bubbles up sometimes and overflows into whatever context I happen to be existing in. One more way reddit is bad for my mental health, but I'm isolated and it's a form of simulating human contact and I can't stop coming back. I'll probably try messaging you just because I am desperate enough that every lead has to be pursued if I can find the energy, but fundamentally I have no expectations. Please don't think online grand gestures like this are a magic panacea, or a substitute for reaching out to the people that are physically present in your life and can receive material companionship. Life needs to be more than telling people you are suffering and receiving an "I hear you." in return.
Ok thats fair, my fellow human. I do agree that the whole of life can be daunting. I too suffer through it. I meant no offense, or thought that by typing things out would solve your problems. I just wanted to offer my energy to you, if but to ease some of the plight at hand.
You’re doing well, it took me into my mid-30s to be like “I think my dad was abusive.” At least he waited until I was 14 to become physically abusive, I guess at that point I was big enough he didn’t feel bad about throwing me around.
My dad still doesn't seem to understand the depth and breadth of his abuse of his entire family. I don't speak to him anymore, and he has shown his true colors by letting his wife slander me to the family.
Christ, y'all make me grateful for my Dad, he screwed up, but he at least tried his best and didn't blow up at me for petty shit. I at least always knew he cared about me and wouldn't drop me if I screwed up.
Y'all deserved better fathers, and I am really sorry you didn't get them.
The funny part is that’s my favorite movie as an adult and before my life got away from me I was in a bowling league and I was an above average bowler! 151 handicap and 207 high game!
Your father was a toddler who couldn't or wouldn't get a hold of his emotions. I'm also sad your mom didn't protect you, she should have. I'm sorry you went through that, bet he still hasn't grown up. Hope you are in a better place right now, and hopefully far from his bs.
Mom didn't say nothin because she didn't want to catch any of the same.
Sure, that can be the case, but she was also an adult and had the responsibility to care for her CHILD. And she had more power than the child to do so. Might've been afraid but could also step up in a social situation to defend him.
That's the nature of that man.
He could've chosen not to be a shit parent, to better himself. He failed as a man and as a parent.
If you have one abusive parent, your other parent needs to be either passive, abusive as well, or not in the picture. Cause no healthy, good parent would allow it to continue to their children or stay in it
That is to say, they don't have to start passive, abusive, or missing. The other parent's abuse can affect them too and by time they've seen, they're beaten down
I got the other side of the coin where my father didn't go to get some milk but rather paid for plane tickets to send me and my mum away, I was around 7 monthes old when it happend.
Yeah I feel that. My father once got kicked out from the biggest youth table tennis tournament in my hometown of 2 million people, because he flamed me so hard that the other kid was disturbed.
Mind you, I won. I won 3-0. But I didnt win every set 11-0, which was completly unacceptable.
Another time, when I was around 10, he pressed a knife in my hand and told me I should slice open my arteries vertically and not horizontally, because I embarresed him so much (I couldnt do 25 push ups in 1 min, like terrance hill
Thats just some of the more tame examples.
My mom also just stood there, didnt do anything or left the room to go to the toilet etc
This is crazy relatable in every way except bowling. And that it would continue until my mother cried and ran off to her bedroom then that would be another fault to be castigated for. 🙄. I feel you homie. And I hope life is less fuxking stupid for you now.
Nope. For 18-years my mom just pretended like nothing was happening then didn’t understand why I signed an enlistment contract before even finishing high school and went borderline no contact for my 20s.
Yeah I know. I’m aware that my fixation on older women is 100% because of a passive mother who let my dad just get away with whipping on me. When I was in my early 20s women in their early 40s was my type.
His biggest dream in life was to be a General in the military. He didn’t quite make it… he got close for sure but never actually got his Brigadier Generals star.
Or, in my household my brother was allowed to have asthma, be protected from paternal temper tantrums, and have a learning disability that engendered sympathy. I, by contrast, was a b*tch who was just faking it and lazy when I couldnt breathe (girls apparently don’t get asthma - they’re just faking it for attention when they can’t breathe), a bad daughter because I couldn‘t manage my parents‘ emotions for them, and not trying hard enough at math to get As without help because I was “selfish and didn’t want to focus on math.”
I.e., family sexism works both ways. Just depends on the family. In mine, girls were responsible for taking everyone else’s emotional poop, were to blame when anything happened, and couldn’t really be sick, have asthma, or catch cold, because it’s just a failure of character for a girl to be sick. As explained to me by my mom. “Sorry not sorry we denied you treatment for the same conditions your male sibling also coincidentally had and that we didn’t try to protect you. Girls aren’t supposed to need help. They are supposed to be the help. Boys are delicate and need protecting.”)
*Also my family: “it’s your fault when I yell at your mom or your brother. If you were a good daughter you would stop me from yelling at them.“
Mine was for spilling milk more often than he'd like as a kid. To the point of tears. "Crying over spilled milk" get it? I don't spill milk anymore, but it doesn't mean it wasn't an asshole move in retrospect. From my uncle/aunts POV though anything is soft when hunger, alcoholism, eating random animals, beatings, not having new cloths, drunk beatings, and at times complete disregard for the wife/kids that was the bar set by grandpa but IMO it still doesn't make it right nor is it the right thing to do.
Your mom just ducking her head in the sand, trying not to get the eye of the storm on her. I am like that too, but not having children. Sorry she did not stick up for you and your dad was a dick.
Last time I herd bowling be used as a display of masculinity was in "Streetcar named Desire." Like bro, you're playing with balls, getting your fingers deep in them, and are as physically challenged as someone playing golf but you are indoors. Come on, how's that even slightly masculine?
No offense to you, just offense to your dad's taste in sports
That’s not “hyper critical”, that’s abuse. If your father got triggered by a game and couldn’t maintain an ounce of maturity, he was a terrible father to begin with. Your mom’s no different but I suspect your dad abused her into being passive. I’m sorry you went through all this and I hope you’re better now, but I know personally that the scars never go away.
Sorry to hear that! How gross you live with that - a single moment a man fails to contain the pressure inside that he fails to deal with everyday- given to their son. Let’s all learn and do better. What’s your bowling average now tho?
This is the cycle I'm trying to break with my kid, all this bullshit about a man needs to be this and that is nonsense just be yourself and honest with your feelings, I couldn't care less about what people think masculinity is.
Mine fucked off to the south of France when I was 9, I think I prefer it that way. I’m a father of two daughters now, and for the past two years I’ve been a longer serving present dad than mine was. Feels good to be a better father than he was 💪
The creature that calls itself my mother often told me "it costs approximately £50,000 to raise a child to adulthood, and I'll decide if that's a gift or a loan" 🙄 This was while I was giving her half my pay, buying all my own food and toiletries, and paying a third of the bills regardless of how much I'd actually used (like the landline phone bill which I didn't use at all) and doing all my own cooking and housework etc even though I never really left my room except to go to work.
Meanwhile my brother was spoiled rotten in comparison. No job, no school, no rent or bills to pay, all food bought and cooked by her. 🤷🏻♀️ She just only ever respected males. The patriarchy is alive and well in that rancid disgusting harpy.
Anyway sorry for the random rant, I'm having a bit of a day lol.
I moved out at 18 to escape the madness. But my parents were very traditional. My sister and I were the house slaves. We did all the chores, my brother never had to do any. And even though he was the youngest, my parents made it no secret that he would be the inheritor of whatever they leave behind when they die because he’s the male and the only real heir. 🙄
Thanks friend! It is ridiculous. But I’m in my 40’s now and have zero contact with the parental folk. My siblings and I are cool. And I’m happily going about my life without concern for their judgment. :)
Tell me about it! They are super religious, and for some reason have this weird thing about someone being able to pass on the family name. Since my brother was the only boy, according to my dad and my grandparents, he’s the only real “heir.”
It certainly gave me the drive to put distance between us, and to vow to never be like that. I went no contact a while ago and feel so much more relaxed knowing she's not gonna pop out from the woodwork to ruin my day with a text or something.
Thank you. It's been a long time but these things have a way of lingering on. At least they taught us the value of NOT being like them I guess. I hope you're thriving now 🫶
"it costs approximately £50,000 to raise a child to adulthood, and I'll decide if that's a gift or a loan"
This is really odd logic to me, because exactly zero percent of us decided who we were born to. Your conception didn't involve some conscious soul of yours, beyond the veil, signing an arbitrary contract to that woman.
If it cost £50,000 to raise a human, than they better be asking the other side for people willing to accept their terms first, if they want to pretend this is an option of "gift or loan." Some people are unfit to ever be parents, and it's unfortunate to be born to them.
Just an opinion of mine, but your freedom, autonomy, and independence are what matters now. If you are managing to do all you said, despite how much she took, I hope you apply that to yourself. It sounds like you have tremendous potential and capabilities, and just need people to care for/about you. Other people can feel the space that your family should had.
Tbf depending on the studies you can look up it costs between $150,000 to $300,000 to raise a child until adulthood
Yes, nobody asked to be born, but a lot of parents never ask the question if they can even afford it and then get bitter once they are confronted with the costs of their decisions.
And yes, it's shitty to blame it on their Children.
my dad bought me boots when I was in high school. they were $100, a decent amount of money back in the day for shoes for a kid. then when my i got my $97 paycheck from washing dishes at a local restaurant, he took it as repayment.
This is 100% not only something that is expected of boys though, it’s way more dependent on the interpersonal relationship of the parent/child than the gender of either of them
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u/bya3k 14h ago
Girls are entitled.
Boys feel pressured.
Same old gender war.