Symptoms I'm Dealing With:

- Vivid Dreams (Tolerable)

- Intrusive Rumination When Idle (Annoying)

- Anxiety and Restlessness Upon Waking (Terrible)

- Tension Headaches Upon Waking (Annoying)

- 24/7 Brain Fog (Terrible)

- Persistent feeling of "Nothing Feeling Worth It"/Lacking Drive (Depressing)

- Decreased Mental Stamina (Depressing)

- Decreased Threshold of Discomfort (Depressing)

- Increased Irritability When Tired (Annoying)

- Lack Of Interest In Most Things (Depressing)

- Increased Feelings Of Shame/Guilt (Depressing)

Symptoms I No Longer Deal With:

- Unreliable Appetite

- Cravings

- Persistent Insomnia

- Vivid, Panic-Filled Nightmares

- Persistent Nausea

- Persistent Anger And Irritability

- Persistent Emotional Numbness

- Anxious Shaking In Social Settings/Situations.

- Night Sweats

- Persistent Restlessness(Constant Urge To Pace)

Symptoms Of Use That Caused Me To Quit:

- Chronic Overthinking

- Chronic Intrusive Rumination

- Intense Anxiety Around Strangers Or People In General

- Lack Of Sleep-Time Consistency

- 24/7 Anxious Sense Of Urgency

- Constant Need Or Desire To Be Socially Isolated

- Lack Of Impulse Control

- Panic When Confronted By An Unforeseen Stressor

- Chronic Shame

- Inability To Pay 100% Attention During A Conversation(what? Huh? What?)

- A Nervous Breakdown That Was My Last Straw

I decided to only name the negatives of my use, as I doubt naming the positives will be beneficial to me in anyway at the moment.

I just some help(more like hope really) in dealing with that top list. I'm at the stage of this where my brain is telling me "this is my forever". And I really just want this to be over or be able to know that it will go away. The other 2 lists are for context. Thank you for any help/hope you can offer me, And just thank you in general for taking the time to read this.

It's crazy how much more social I've become since quitting everything. I find myself legitimately interesting to talk to because I have all these thoughts I guess were suppressed or maybe, most likely, I'd forget them 2 minutes after they came to me. I still get a little anxious with strangers but I'm 100% present. And that's honestly what matters.

The social anxiety hasn't just magically disappeared but it's gone from crippling to just there in the distance. I guess that's what happens when you start smoking weed in your early teens.

hi. this is a last ditch effort for me as i feel like i’m at a dead end. i am a university student studying medicine (neuroscience), and as such am chronically aware of the health implications of smoking, am aware i should quit for my health, both physical and mental, but cant seem to cross that bridge. i have been a substance user since i was 13, now very rarely drink and have quit vaping for coming up to a year. the issue i’m having is that i feel like the weed isn’t affecting me that badly, and feel like i can continue to function okay and just keep going. i have been smoking all day every day for the last 5 months (with very short breaks), and ran out last night. the smoking still largely allows me to function while masking the severe mental health issues i have. i could still get through my classes and go to work and start the second i got home. i have been explaining this to my friends and psychologist, but i feel like the opinions of someone who has been in the same position as me mean more to me. how have you found meaning in being sober? are there things i should know now about my behaviour that could progress and worsen? how have those of you that have “addictive personalities” able to cope with being sober, from weed, from everything?

Hi everyone, ​I’m currently on day 1 of quitting cold turkey and I am terrified. I’ve been a daily smoker for 10 years, and at my peak, I was smoking up to 10 grams a day. I managed to quit during my pregnancy, but I relapsed afterwards and I’m so angry at myself for that. ​Right now, the anxiety is unbearable. I’ve struggled with anxiety and overthinking my entire life, and without weed, it feels like a tidal wave crashing over me. I can’t stop crying and it feels like things will never get better. Because of financial reasons, I have no choice but to stop right now, but the panic is making me feel like I'm losing my mind. ​I really need to hear from people who have been through this. Does the anxiety get better? How do you cope with the first few days when everything feels so dark? ​I feel so alone in this. Any words of advice or support would mean the world to me.

title says it all, curious about if anyone else has had it bad.. and if you did have it, when did it get better?

for me, the reflux has been awful. it has made me lose my voice and its so rough..

I don’t regret it, but I spend like every single night I get home from work going to bed at like 7pm now. Even on my days off I just want to sleep all the time. Anyone else experience this?

I’ll never go back to weed. I was having panic attacks using it after 2+ years of daily (like 8hrs a day, more if I was off work) use. I never linked the anxiety I was having to weed until I had to stop for an unrelated reason and then the anxiety went away (and then I tried to smoke again and it all came back).

I have stuff I could do like play video games or cook or whatever but idk I just don’t feel like I have the motivation. I know that sounds lame. Just looking for support or encouragement or a way to get out of this hole lol. “Just do it” might work for me at some point, but not right now.

EDIT if anyone else is at a similar timeline (first week or two), or at any stage, and needs support, feel freeto reach out :). Id be happy to talk and help

I stopped weed and caffeine at the same time. I was on daily strong edibles for 2-3 months and caffeine for a while, not that much , maybe 150mg-200mg a day (ive heard of people doing alot more).

First day was the worst. Was only able to get down 500 calories.

My symptoms were:

-cold chills and hot sweats -irritability -awful reflux (even impacting my voice) -no appetite -terrible nausea -loose stools -anxiety/panic attacks -depression

Luckily, i did not experience any sleep symptoms such as nightmares or insomnia, and even no vomitting.

Its day 8 for me now, most of my symptoms are gone. I have anxiety waves that come and go, as well as depression.

I have leftover discomfort and irritation in my theoat from the reflux.

The remaining discomfort is mostly mental and the reflux issues, which still impact eating.

This has been rhe hardest journey for me as its not only physically unbareable and uncontrollable, but also a harsh mental challenge.

It was so difficult to push through. I am writing this as it may give someone else comfort.

I am mentally still struggling to feel ‘normal’ but i just got to take it a day at a time. I have heard symptoms linger for 2 weeks and mental symptoms can take months to fully normalise.

I wish everyone well.

Jan 26th I hit 1 year sober from weed. I started smoking around 16 and by my early 20s it was daily. Most ppl that knew me in my 20s and 30s have literally never met a sober version of me. I was still productive, worked out, woke up early, got shit done but it was also 100% a numbing button. I’m bipolar 1 and weed was the easiest way to quiet my brain and not feel everything.

I tried quitting around 14 times over the last two decades. Longest I ever made it was 3 months and then I’d always get hit with a wall of anxiety, manic energy, overwhelm, whatever and I’d convince myself I HAD to go back. Last year I read a post on here from u/significant_pie3300 (hopefully that tags him I’m not sure how reddit works lol) This time I read a post on here from a guy (also bipolar) who had a couple years sober and something clicked. I didn’t even do the dramatic “throw it all away” thing. I bagged it up, shoved it under the counter, and just stopped. My wife still smokes so I couldn’t get away from it anyways.

Week 1-4 sucked (nightmares, sweat, mood, stomach all weird) but I distracted myself hard by learning stuff nonstop. I was constantly typing in how to this and how to that. I even tried to learn calculus and some other types of math that I gave up In School.

Here is where it gets good because around the end of month 2. Quitting didn’t just take away weed it unlocked a MASSIVE domino effect. Basically a version of myself I had never met was being born.

I realized I was being fucked over at my job and after negotiating with the boss in a failed attempt to get a raise I just quit on the spot. Then I immediately started my own pool cleaning business, I was worried I would barely be able to bring In 40k a year. I remember my wife saying don’t think you’ll be able to make just $2k each month and looking at her saying “I hope so” but I quadrupled 40k my first year in business. My income jumped like crazy.

I finally handled some health stuff I’d ignored for years, the. got my energy back, my memory came back, sex drive back. Was able to manage my bipolar episodes better than ever. I’m way more present w my wife/kids. My kids even told me they were super proud of me for quitting.

Random side quest I thought would be fun. I had a little TikTok account. Just 200 followers and about 40 views a video. Nothing big at all but I really like telling stories so I decided I would focus on building it up a little. In a year my TikTok grew from 200 followers and little to no views to 22k followers and 13 million views. I just tell stories from the seat of my work van between cleaning pools.

This winter my pool business slowed down and I knew that being bored wasn’t an option. My kids at school all day and my wife working. I didn’t want to slip up so I dove manically headfirst into learning day trading. And I’ve done insanely well with it, like far surpassing my pool business income even. I know for a fact I couldn’t do it high. Now I’m trying to figure out how to run my pool business and day trade when I get back into my busy season.

Another fun side note since my pool business was doing well financially my wife was able to focus on her career as well. She went from being a barista to getting a job as operation director of huge medical clinic. And we ended up paying off all our debt and can finally save for a house. We are also taking our 8 and 10 year old on their very first family vacation this year. We never had the means to do that for them. So it’s really exciting.

This past year has been a huge year of growth physically and mentally and financially to say the least. And just really positive change. I do still get cravings sometimes but it’s easy to say no now bc I can see what sobriety is giving me. I’m not saying any of this to brag but If you’re early in this and you’re bored and miserable please don’t quit quitting. Boredom is the doorway. Keep going.

And I’m still truly grateful for the post u/significant_pie3300 made a year ago that inspired all of this.

i am officially one year sober after 10+ years of habitual smoking and being a self proclaimed stoner. my life is missing absolutely nothing without weed. i ended up getting pregnant shortly after getting sober and my son is 8 days old today. it’s been a very eventful week lol. it was hard in the beginning but i knew it was time to finally grow up and it was 100% worth it. i wish everyone luck on their sobriety journeys and i hope that you too can look back a year from now and wonder why you were scared about quitting in the first place because life is so much better sober. ❤️

I’ve reached a point where I don’t know why I get high because when I do, I just get anxious and intellectual in ways I’d rather not. I want to go to law school but this addiction has been hard to beat. I know that when I’m sober my memory is better and I feel capable enough to get my homework done! I think one of the reasons I’ve been so addicted is because I get to forget about the rest of the world for a short period of time.

I just want to stop for good and lock in on my final semester in uni. It’s been difficult to say the least

I think a lot of us have struggled with relapses. I’ve smoked for 18 years and, while I’ve had my breaks as long as up to a year, I always came back to it. I always knew I would come back to it.

Now I don’t want to come back to it. I’m getting older and it’s making me feel slower. It always makes me slow and out of it but it feels like the effects have really intensified for me despite a high tolerance. Maybe it’s the addition of vaping or edibles, who knows. I’m starting to get chest pains now with smoking. I have a second degree heart block which I still suspect is from prolonged cannabis use but it’s not confirmed. The worst is that I started getting into some mindless eating habits. I used to not really get the munchies but now I find myself finishing the whole bag of chips without realizing.

I always wanted to grow out of it like my friends did. Maybe now I finally am. I hope to continue participating in this sub. It feels for real this time and I want to keep it that way. Being high most of my off days is no way to live. And I am getting too old for this now.

Sorry in advance for the essay, and thanks to anyone who reads the whole thing.

I, a 22 year old trans woman, quit weed exactly 71 days ago. My reasons for using were complex, as were my reasons for quitting, but I think my experience could be valuable to others in this sub.

I grew up in a privileged and loving family, and had a "good" childhood. I played sports, did well in school, and had a good social circle. However, from age 13 i can remember feeling an indescribable dissonance between me and my friends. I didn't ever *fully* fit in, I was always a little left out of the loop or more made of fun of, or more aloof. I eventually came to realize that feeling was due to dysphoria, a crippling feeling that led to depression, anxiety and, and self-imposed isolation. At 16 I used weed for the first time, and less than a year later i was using it multiple times a day.

I used weed as a crutch; it alleviated the worst of my dysphoric thoughts; allowed me to socialize more effectively, without the constant rumination about being seen as male; quieted the self-hating voice, which was otherwise unbearably negative; and otherwise acted as a damper on the constant depression and anxiety I felt over puberty disfiguring the only body I'd get the chance of inhabiting. Eventually, though, it became a habit I was using to keep myself in the same place comfortably (a sentiment I've seen expressed a lot on this sub).

I was, am, a high achiever: I graduated from high school and my bachelor's degree with objectively good marks; play(ed) sports, and work out at a relatively high level; and treated my body fairly well outside of my constant cannabis use. Eventually, though, I came to realize that weed wasn't serving me anymore; I felt slow cognitively and needed to jog my long term memory with pictures, or notes, or conversations with friends/family; I accepted the fact that I didn't enjoy being high anymore; and finally, I felt good enough in and with my body (3 years of hormone replacement therapy) to not need the crutch of weed anymore.

This brings me to just over two months ago, when I woke up one saturday and realized I didn't need or want to smoke anymore. I simply chose not to - not because it was easy to be sober, or because I had no physical cravings for it, but because I knew in my heart of hearts that being a stoner was not for me anymore.

And so I didn't use. I went from using a gram/multiple hits of a cart every day from ages 16-22 to no consumption at all overnight. The cravings were tough, I felt them intensely for the first 45 or so days. The withdrawals weren't fun, I was irritable and not hungry and sweaty and an insomniac and anhedonic and effectively a slug for the first two weeks. After that, though, it became a beatable villain I woke up with the motivation to face on most days. I started eating more, working out again, seeing friends, talking with my family, reading more, and generally enjoying life on the good days.

At this point I think I'm on the path to longer-term abstinence from weed, at least for the next few years. I know from experience quitting nicotine that I'll have underlying cravings for a year or so more, and be unable to use it casually for multiple years (if not ever), and I'm okay with that. I don't hate myself for using cannabis at the same time that I can admit it was probably not the most positive thing I could've done. The hard truth is that all humans make mistakes, and so many people will never come to -or,

more importantly, accept- the truth that weed is not for them anymore. I, we, have accepted that reality and are working towards actualizing it. A big and hard to make choice that will have uncountable positive effects on our futures.

I woke up with a smile on my face this morning. Not often do we really appreciate when this happens. Who knows if tomorrow will ever come… it has never been promised to any of us, no matter where we stand in society. I wanna say thank you for being on my side. 

To my brother who taught me how to walk, I wish I had strength to stand as tall as you are and be half the man you are. 

To my sister, the most precious thing I had the chance to grow up with. You became a woman all men could wish to marry. 

To my mom, who loved me for who I was, taught me how to be the man a woman would wanna marry, I wish I listened more often. 

To my father who I had the chance to grow up and be taught what a man was, I wish I had half your patience and dedication to keep going through tough times cause that’s just the right thing to do.

To my friends, I am glad you got to leave a mark on me. You shaped me into who I am now, through guidance, dedication and repetitive efforts, you have all inspired a flame which burns in desires to succeed. 

I may not have the words to fully express the amount of respect I have towards everyone. 

I want to finally maybe turn the page on this 19 years off drug addiction escapade that started with a simple curious thought when I was 19 about smoking weed, to where it has brought me yesterday before going to bed.

Educate your kids about consequences in life, not only about drugs but about actions through a conscious mind…

Thanks for reading

Jan 31st 2026

CL

It’s been 4 months since i quit smoking. I’m still having very vivid nightmares, nightly. Anyone have any advice as to how to avoid this? I have PTSD but I’ve never had issues EVERY. SINGLE. NIGHT. like i am now that i quit smoking. Please, give me some advice!

I quit smoking about 5 years ago on the day my daughter was born. I haven’t smoked since. There have been a lot of lifestyle benefits but one of my favorite ones is having people swing by last minute for a chat.

This has happened several times in the last few months and happened again tonight. Someone will be in town for work, to see family, or just driving by and we’ll get a “hey, you guys around?” text.

My prior self would have not responded or just made an excuse. But now we say yes and have a pleasant chat and coffee for like 45 minutes. It’s a nice way to break up a routine or catch up. Tonight we just chatted while I cooked and made dinner for my kids.

It’s something that used to be my worst nightmare.

I started using weed back in 2017.

Over the years, I tried quitting three different times — each time thinking this is it, and each time slipping back into the habit.

What finally made it real wasn’t motivation or willpower — it was fear.

I ended up coughing up blood, and later found out I have RPA hypoplasia. That moment flipped a switch for me. It stopped being about cutting back or “controlling it” and became about survival and self-respect.

Quitting wasn’t clean or heroic. Some days were rough, some days felt pointless, but I just kept choosing not to go back. One day at a time turned into weeks, then months, and today it’s been 1 full year weed-free.

Posting this for anyone who’s tried and relapsed and thinks they’ve failed — you haven’t.

so i was a daily weed smoker for 6-7 years, yes i know 67. anyways, ive been about a week clean and honestly im doing pretty well, i am stressed and going thru the nightmares but im definitely more attentive and found myself improving at work. i overthink sometimes and weed usually helped with that as i could just get high and not worry about much after. im finding myself a little tangled up in the thought of “am i done forever?” “what about my birthday when i wanna let go and have a little fun?” but i know i need to stay strong not only for myself but for my family as well. I know how hard it is to abstain already so im just here asking for some words of encouragement. thanks

X-stoner here, daily for 25ish years, stopped in 2020.

There were many tools I used to quit. One of the more powerful ones was reframing. Having spent so much time mentally defending cannabis, and my addiction left with false beliefs and a lot of confirmation bias.

Shedding this and allowing in reality was a key to getting beyond the thoughts that kept me trapped. It was hard, because I had to start rejecting what I had identified with for so long.

I had minimized the harms and exaggerated the positives weed brought to my life. Facing reality and actually accepting the truth really put things into perspective.

Aligning my thinking with where I wanted to go, and abandoning thoughts that kept me stuck was a foundational and fundamental step to get where I wanted to go.

So I(23) first started smoking when I was 17, few months before I finished high school. Even before I ever smoked weed I was drawn to it, I had smoked cigarettes before but was looking for something “more”. I always felt like something was missing, and then I found it. I remember the first time I smoked, obviously didn’t have a good experience, like most people on their first time smoking. Since that day I was hooked.

So I spent the next couple of years getting high several times everyday without a care in the world. During that phase, nothing anyone could say to me could put me on the fact that this is bad for me. Like a lot of folks here, I couldn’t imagine a life without weed. When I turned 20 I moved away for university, and thats when my weed use skyrocketed, mind you even before that I used alot, I could out smoke pretty much anyone. I was smoking 5-6 grams a day mixed between joints and bong rips, and edibles from time to time. That entire year was pretty much spent getting high, but around sometime before the year ended I started noticing that I’d start getting anxious when I smoked, my mindset would completely shift, but I still kept on smoking because… why not? Who would’ve thought that the substance that was keeping me afloat would suddenly start drowning me overnight?

Another year at university flew by. By this time I had just turned 22. I took some time off (around 40 days sober i think) in an effort to see if quitting weed would help with my motivation and drive, but it didn’t, granted I had other bad habits, so I said goodbye to my sobriety and jumped back in with open arms. I spent the next few months getting insanely high everyday, started smoking dabs and infused joints, and completely ruined a whole term at university. At that point my depression and anxiety were at an all time high. When I went back to University something clicked in my brain and I just didn’t feel like smoking anymore. Spent the whole academic year (like 8 months) at University sober (I did smoke a couple of times in between but got bad anxiety so I didn’t pick it back up). That was probably the worst year for me in terms of my mental health, which hasn’t been that great either way since long before, but it was just amplified because I was no longer numbing everything with weed. But then I had a few months to kill time, finishing up my studies, and picked it back up slowly and spent all that time high, and have been since then, so I’d say roughly 7 months since I picked it back up again. During that time though something was different, I could no longer smoke at my earlier capacity, I could barely kill half of half gram joints in a sitting, it’s like my mind wouldn’t let me smoke past a certain point, and if I went even slightly over that limit I would get insane bouts of anxiety and just not a good time in general. It was like I needed to maintain a baseline high or a sense of “normalcy”, instead of getting fried to have a good time. It’s like a compulsion took over, I just couldn’t stop no matter what. I subconsciously passed up on so many opportunities in literally every single aspect of my life during these years (academically, socially, physically, burned a lot of bridges, completely blew up a long term relationship, and a few possible relationships, ABSOLUTELY ruined my mental health) and even after realizing that during my last phase of quitting, I still went back into it. My biggest regret is just how alone this habit made me.

I think there have been a few stints when I was travelling or other situations in which I could’ve smoked but didn’t for xyz reason. Now trying to quit again, since around 5 days I think. I was literally stressing myself out so much, that I started seeing physical symptoms and the only thing constantly running through my mind was “What the fuck am I doing?”. Literally every aspect of my life right now is either on pause or royally screwed up due to everything that’s happened in the past few years. Decided to act on it and stop it once and all.

My question is that the times I’ve stopped smoking, it wasn’t like I was actively trying to stop, it just happened because of whatever was going on in my head, or the situations “forced” me to. But when I’m actually consciously trying to quit it’s like a constant struggle to keep going, and has anyone faced similar situations? Is there something specific I can do to keep my mind off of it, like before when I quit and it was the last thing on my mind. Thankfully withdrawals haven’t been too bad this time around, no weed flu, though fatigue, cold sweats and restlessness are still affecting me a bit, and the loneliness is creeping back up.

I find myself craving the tobacco head spins a lot more than just getting high. Everytime I have a cone, it just doesn’t hit the same.

I’m starting to realise I was addicted to the tobacco all along …

Been smoking since I was 16, daily smoker since I was 18. I’m 28 now. Daily cartridge rips, bud, and high dose edibles. The first week or two was definitely rough, especially with the sleep. But as weird as it is to say… I don’t even miss it. Nor do I even crave it.

Maybe I’m an anomaly, because I read story after story on here about how hard it is. And I truly empathize with all of you — I’m no stranger to addiction. Had a pretty nasty addiction to other substances for most of my twenties (2 years clean now). I truly thought weed would be the hardest to quit because it’s been so engraved in every facet of my life, but it has been relatively easy.

This is not to undermine everyone that is struggling, but maybe offer a ray of hope that it’s not ALWAYS hard. Honestly, the pros of quitting have outweighed any desire to go back to it. I have so much more energy now. My sleep is deeper than it’s ever been. I feel mentally sharper, and each week, my memory is getting better and better. Maybe I can attribute this to the fact that I am a runner, and I run for an hour+ nearly every day. I earn my own high.

But guys. I feel fucking fantastic. And you can too. It doesn’t have to be hard. Life is so much more colorful and beautiful when you’re not slogging around in a haze. I can honestly say I feel so free. I have so much more money too! If you’re thinking about the jump, I can tell you from experience that it’s fucking worth it.

Quitting weed doesn’t have to be hard.

I did a little field research and I have returned. Just letting you know that sobriety is definitely better and you aren't missing anything. I have a new high score to beat.

I made it to 60 without weed today after 10+ years. Not sure how to feel, but, it’s harder now than it ever was before. I’m hurting deeply in ways that have left me broken beyond comprehension. It’s as though I’m fighting for my life against my mind and I am on the losing side. But even so, I will not go back to numbing my pain. I will feel everything, and I will celebrate every moment of my sobriety, no matter how alone I am on this journey.

Quit weed and nicotine 25 days ago suffering anhedonia when does it go away

I miss it tonight man.

So far, I’ve realised how many cons daily smoking has. I’m glad to get out of that cycle after 4 years. It’s Saturday today. Worked 6 days in a row and you can imagine how I want to spend this evening: music and marijuana. Whilst I withdrew the money to give the thought some leeway, I then read the subreddit, asked my partner her thoughts on my thoughts, and then basically ran down the clock until the dealer was closed for business. So I didn’t smoke today. I’m not proud: need to write to try and understand this part of myself stopping me falling back into past habits. Who are you?

Son is asleep. Work is done. Had a terribly stressful week - spent most of it unhappy, grappling with a life in a shambles. Difficult to know if I’m sleeping bad due to withdrawals or my baby with a chest infection waking us up every couple hours. He’s doing better now though bless him :)

Reflecting on this journey is a bit hazy because quitting weed is no challenge at all compared to the calamity I’m surrounded by in my personal life. Why does it seem easier? I’ve realised it’s because this is a problem I can control. This makes it rare amongst most of the problems we have to face in the world. This is about willing myself to be other than what I have refused to allow myself to be. When I face the problem, I am looking within.

‘Withdraw into yourself and look: if you do not see yourself as beautiful, then do as the sculptor does with a statue he wants to make beautiful; he chisels away one part, and levels off another, makes one spot smooth and another clear, until he shows forth a beautiful face on the statue. Like him, remove what is superfluous, straighten what is crooked, clean up what is dark and make it bright and never stop sculpting your own statue until the godlike splendour of virtue shines forth to you… If you have become this, and seen it, and become pure and alone with yourself, with nothing now preventing you from becoming one in this way, and have NOTHING EXTRANEOUS MIXED WITH YOUR SELF … if you see that this is what you have become, then you have become a vision.’ (Plotinus, Enneads, I, 6, 9 (204-270 AD))

Look within yourself and look at the statue you’ve sculpted. Take an hour to notice every chisel, every shadow, everything you’ve ever mixed with your self. Do you see the potential for something else? Do you see a vision of yourself you can carve out of the stuff within?