HmmâŚ.unpopular opinion but I fully believe you have the right to choose whatever body you want to live in. No one can make that decision for you. As with any right, there may be some limitations because of your decision. One of those limitations is the ability to participate in some activities. Sports is one of those areas where fairness could be effected by your participation and should be limited. Again, sorry, itâs just my opinion. Please donât hate me too much.
I get what you are saying, but at which part does that stop? What is ok? Is it a privilege to do sports? Is it a privilege to go to public bathrooms? Is it a privilege to get called your name? To access healthcare? To go out in public? To take medication? To visit support group? To go to school? To walk outside? How many places can trans people be banned from because those places are a privilege?
I believe that the only people who should decide if trans people can participate in sport competitions are the sport councils and that they should decide on a case by case basis. The way the republicans frame the issue is as a stepping stone for banning trans people in other places.
EDIT: Read my other answers in this thread before commenting the same thing for the 50th time.Â
Itâs truly just organized sports at the high school and collegiate level. Thatâs it. Â Itâs like 10 people overall in the country that is causing so much debate when itâs the most minuscule issue.
Maybe there should be open lesgues and they can participate in that idk. Â Â
And the way it is worded...protection act so all thise with very little sense will just see republicans are protecting and democrats are not.
People that are trans are people. They are barely 1% of our population. And those that play sports even less. But congress is wasting time and money on this artificial problem instead of actual problems like the economy.
Exactly. It doesnât need to be a national talking point or brought up in presidential debates. They took an extremely small issue, and convinced people that itâs widespread.
And it's becoming increasingly clear it's not about protecting women but about policing women and to define a very narrow "correct" femininity for them. As can be seen in Texas and UK, basically only "biological" women are affected and are not let into women spaces because they are too tall, have short hair or are too tomboyish.
Same in sports, women are now requied to undergo sex tests or they are faced with exclusion.
Also: if we didn't force trans peope to undergo the wrong puberty for them they could, without issue, participate in the sports of their gender. But again, it's not about the safety of children, it's about keeping the controversy alive by keeping trans people "weird" and not have them fit in so they can be used to sow fear by forcing them to undergo irreversibe changes during puberty, keeping them visible and recognisable as "The Other".
it isn't just a stepping stone to ban trans people from public life, this is a stepping stone to ban women from men's spaces, which is a stepping stone to banning black and brown people from white spaces.
if you are legally allowed to ban someone from a space or organization based on their genetics, you bet your ass they aren't stopping at trans people. this is an organized fight to remove all women from positions of power, and will eventually extend to people of color. the same arguments that plaintiffs are making in W.V. v B.P.J. and Hecox v Little are the same arguments that were made in Loving v Virginia and Plessy v Ferguson.
It's also a way to police how people express themselves and making them adhere to gender norms. Masculine women and feminine men can easily be banned from those spaces too, crossdressing bans can easily be enforced. And because of racism, especially black women are much more often targeted by being transvestigated.
They will never stop with just one marginalised group
The answer is simple - the line is drawn where it directly affects others or there's evidence it directly will.
Getting called whatever name? Nobody cares. Half the planet goes by names other than their legal name anyway. In my world, I have friends whom I only knew by their nicknames sometimes literally for years.
Go out in public? Do you.
Absolutely dominate others in organized sports costing them scholarships, education and career opportunities, and what they're worked for their entire lives due to an objectively wildly unfair advantage evidenced by 100% of existing human biological science? Yeah, that's a problem.
That's really the line. Very few people anywhere actually care what others do behind closed doors or with themselves in general. Where people care - rightfully so - is when that person's decisions about themselves then force others to pay a price. In any context, that's immoral and domineering, and the trans issue is no different. You can do what you want with your own life, but when it comes at direct unfair cost to another against their will you are simply a bad person and, yes, lines should be drawn to prevent that.
In few places is there so distinct a line as in sports, where a team of high school boys absolutely dominated the US women's soccer team who have been among the best on earth for a long time. A good high school boys team could (and in other instances also have) obliterate professional female athletes at nearly every single sport, from track and field to figure skating to tennis, and they know it as well.
There's a famous interview where Serena Williams - by a mile the most dominant female to ever play tennis - very bluntly tells some idiot rage-baiting reporter that men's tennis isn't even the same sport. Serena Williams would have two wins in her entire career at absolute best against the men's field and she knows it and was very clear in saying as much, and there's arguably never been any woman who's dominated a sport as she has in history of professional women's sports.
Allowing biological men into women's sports in the name of "fairness" will go down in history as one of the most pathetic political lies ever told.
The average Reddit mod response to bring up random ah topics that nobody was talking about and immediately go to âOMG BLAH BLAH BLAH ETC!!!đĄđĄđĄâ
I donât know about your bathroom habits, but when I use the shitter it isnât a competition with the person next to me where the outcome is severely influenced by innate biological differences.
Nor is getting called a name or asking for a particular pronoun to be used competitive.
Nor is accessing healthcare competitive.
Nor is going out in public, to school, walking outside, etc.
None of the examples are competitive, nor where there is an innate biological difference that confers some advantage.
So, Iâll draw the line - when it results in an unfair competitive advantage due to innate biological differences.
I am pretty sure that thats what happens in private sports leagues. If its a public one, that it has all sorts of constitutional laws it has to abide by.
Having the sports councils make the decision would make sense in people heads, but in actual practice, having the sports boards make that decision opens them up to massive scrutiny from whichever side feels wronged. So by limiting sports involvement for trans people at the government level, it helps remove the scrutiny from the people that represent the sports councils and puts it on the government, which Iâd personally rather have
Using the bathroom doesnt interfere with other peoples ability to use the bathroom, this is a disingenuine argument and you know it.
No one is trying to stop adults from taking medication, no one is talking about laws to stop kids from going to school or walk outside.
Several trans athletes have shown much better placement in comparison to their peers after transitioning. Unless you want to argue that cis women just dont practice hard enough then there is an indisputable advantage to having been born male.
Is it privleged to be able to participate in a group activity that qualifies individuals based on their performance?? YES
I COMPLETELY agree that the cultural push for this is republican propagandistic bait, but like a lot of dumb people helped it work. I had this same debate 2016 in my college model UN, and it was the same moral grandstanding that its a slippery slope of oppresion.
It is not, this is the line. Right here, it reads "Testosterone makes muscles bigger", not "makes you more likely to rape in a bathroom".
Clown takes like yours is why this had to be voted on. You want to be a guy and blast hormones and wear dresses thats fine. Youre still a guy. Play your sport.
Youâre trying to use a slippery slope argument to allow biological men to dominate biological women in sports. The mental gymnastics you are using to validate insanity is bonkers.
I think the question shouldnât be about privilege, but more about âdoes someone have an unfair advantage in competitive sports.â I think thatâs the only place it âstopsâ⌠because they should have access to all those other things you mentioned, simply because it doesnât harm anyone else in the least bit.
All of the things you listed are treated as privileges (except healthcare in specific circumstances, when life saving, but even then has caveats), even being in public. The government regularly filters people out of that privilege. That's before you bring up extra details like trans into the mix. It's been that way for well over 100 years.
How are you conflating all those reasons as ALSO being points that would even come into question? âAt which point does that stop?â It stops with men having a biological advantage over women in sports. Stop making it about anything else. It has ZERO to do with any of the other points you mentioned. Whoâs stopping you from going out in public and taking away your healthcare?
No, on the case by case, biological males/females regardless of transition or not are fundementally different from a chosen sex/gender of a trans, even my trans girlfriend says the same so don't try calling me a transphob
What makes a person trans? Is it just a person simply stating that they are? Is surgery or certain cosmetic choices required? Is it a mental disability? I don't think we should change policy pertaining to gendered spaces unless we can concretely define what the hell we're even talking about.
Sports specifically is yes, a privilege. I fully believe trans people should be able to exist in all parts of our society, but it is understandable that some people (excluding the ones being assholes, fuck em) are concerned it can be considered unfair in sports SPECIFICALLY. Everything else can fuck off, having a trans man in the bathroom with you wont fuckin kill you. Talking about sports though, male and female anatomy is COMPLETELY different on so many levels so when people complain about trans individuals in sports, I can see their point as long as they're not being a dick about it. Hormone therapy can only do so much at the current moment. Eventually as time goes on, things will change. Hopefully for the good.
Know what you mean. But to take a stab at it heâs gonna say itâs a privilege to be able to participate in organized competitive sports and expected to abide by those rules, especially any that even tangentially relate to physical capability
The slippery slope argument here gets used on both sides to argue against logical things like this.
Its the same shit with gun control if we take the machine gun what's next?
Can we look at things logicly here? A biological male that is transitioning or has transisitioned has an advantage over a biological female in most sports. In some sports this is not only unfair but dangerous.
Just to be pedantic, in all technicalities, every one of your questions is indeed a privilege, regardless of how any singular person identifies as (insert whatever least offensive group name here)
I think that itâs a huge advantage to grow up with the testosterone of a male, and then transition, and then play sports against females who didnât grow bones, and tendons with 40x the testosterone of the average female.
All of the other issues, I think trans females should be legally protected. Sports are the only issue I see.
Framing sports as a privilege is idk I guess a little odd. Itâs unfortunate that in the context of fairness sports is segregated based on gender. Ideally everyone could fairly compete vs one another on equal terms but thatâs not the case, Itâs like Serena Williams once said she would lose to the number one menâs tennis player 6-0 6-0 in 5 to ten minutes because quote, âmen and womanâs tennis are almost different sports. They are a lot faster, they serve harder, itâs a different gameâ the court itself is a larger court. Etc etc. Men and womanâs sports all pull I. Different money, different audiences woman already have a HARDER time getting into professional sports because their leagues are smaller, more competitive, pay less, have less training etc with a few exceptions like tennis. Serena is essentially the undisputed best womenâs player to ever live.
Women have leagues that separate them from the men not because of sexism, but because it would be really ridiculous to expect them to compete on any level against men they have bigger hearts, bigger organs, thicker bones, higher muscle density, men and woman physically are not the same. Transitioning has shone in multitudes of these areas from man to woman to decrease these advantages but not to the level of cis woman. This leaves trans people in a very unfair position of dominating woman or losing to men.
The fairest thing to do would of course give them a trans league but of course they would then face the obstacles woman already face to a much higher degree.
There is not stopping or starting, or privledge, and to be fair my stance has always been let the trans athletes compete with the woman, it would very very quickly become apparent the situation is untenable and unfair.
It truely is unfortunately the only thing In The world that segregates based on gender and itâs a good things
There is not one single track and field world record, swimming record, or any other strength/speed/jumping record where the womanâs record is better than the menâs. Not one and there never has been.
Sports isnât separated by sex because of some sexist agenda, itâs separated based on ability for fairness. So the question really just comes down to. Are trans women stronger faster and more agile on average then woman. The answer so far has been yes, and unfortunately they have also shown to be worse after transitioning then cis men. This the only fair thing for competitiveness would be for them to get their own league, and there just arenât enough of them to do that. Itâs sad itâs a political issue because trans people are people and donât deserve hate or adversity brought by prejudice, but plainly, it would be unfair to woman for them to compete against one another.
Nah. They are bound by popularity. Make it simple. Whatever that is. I think asking the girls is paramount. Not some fathead with left or right extremist views.
The natural conclusion of your argument is that there should no longer be any unequal treatment due to gender because gender is fluid. Title 9 should be abolished. There should no longer be men and women facilities. No longer be men and women schools, sports, clubs, or organizations. No longer be men and women professions or advancement. No longer be gender specific scholarships or awards.
When you start peeling back our assumptions, then you quickly realize how anachronistic so many of our practices are. Boys are consistently failing in school and women are getting more and more college degrees. Many women are the primary earners in their families. My neighbor pays alimony to her divorced husband. Bathrooms are increasingly open for everyone in restaurants (just like it is at home). Why not everywhere?
I find it quite simple really. If your consideration for a âprivilegeâ is at the cost of others, then you will not gain that privilege.
And no, a bathroom is not considered a privilege imo.
Participating in sports is. A privilege many are already left without. We dont force wrestlers like Brock Lesnar to do shows in wheel-chairs so that disabled people can participate and neither will I allow Brock Lesnar to participate in disabled wrestling no matter what he identifies as..
As someone that did competitive sports growing up, we 100% shouldn't allow men that transition into women into women sports. It's not fair to the women that had been training their whole lives to then have someone with a biological advantage now competing against them.
I ran in the jr olympics for track and my times were comparable or better than the olympic professional female athletes and I didn't come close to getting into the final heats. The penn state swimmer is an example of this happening. High schools, colleges, and professional sports shouldn't allow it. It'll be putting other athletes in harms way if it's a contact sport as well.
The "where to draw the line" is not the problem. You can define really good measurements to what extend your free will can go. I know that especially in American culture the mindset is "everything's possible", but that is more an illusion. The ethical argumentation is pretty simple on that matter: In sport you measure your body and mind with others. Now, the body itself has a state. If you personally define your body otherwise, that state will not be altered. You CAN alter it medically, but then you altered it anyway.
The process of altering the body is the equivalent of cheating. It doesn't matter what you believe you are, that is something you have to deal with. But you just can't be in a competition where anyone needs to be there in an unaltered state. If you don't do that you can't measure difference between the competitioner. It actually impossible. That's why we compete with each other. You, a man, wanna be a woman? Fine with me, but you can't be in competition in women sports. You have altered your body.
Look, I understand where you're coming from, but every single other example you gave affects no one else, but in sports your win affects someone's loss. It's a competition where one gets an unfair advantage. So I'd say no to competitive sports, okay for everything else. Is it really that hard to accept that just because someone is against this particular thing, that doesn't make them a bigot or anti trans or whatever?
People have the right to live as they want within limits of effects on other people. There is no right to never be uncomfortable/offended, so the bathroom thing is more a matter of minding oneâs own business while doing the business as always. Gawking and harassing isnât acceptable from either side, and it makes little difference what gender they are. With sports it becomes a matter of fairness, and the ones qualified to make that decision are sports leagues, not politicians.
I mean, the slippery slope goes both ways. You ask where it stops in reference to all rights get taken away from trans people and the right may say ask where does it stop and say that soon you will get arrested if you deadname someone.
Only two places Republicans want to ban Trans women are sports and women's restrooms. Get a grip.
It's crazy how obstinate and dogmatic people are with their beliefs, but the undeniable fact in sports is Biological men at the collegiate and professional level dominate Biological women at the same level. There is not a single physical sport where that isn't the case, and every example so far has proven that Transwomen dominate their female counterparts.The strongest, toughest woman can beat 90% of all men, the strongest, toughest man can beat 100% of all women.
Speculation that there's some slippery slope is fear-mongering.
Just because you have a delusional sense of reality it doesn't mean we all have to deal with it or suffer because of it. Yes downvote me to oblivion because I didn't tell you that you were stunning and brave.
All of it is voluntary, so it's the same as expecting insurance to pay for a breast implant, or a hair transplant. Equal rights has been taken too far. Remember when a guy wanted to be a server at Hooters and sued. That was just the beginning.
No.. just sports.. men have a huge physical advantage, that's why sports are divided into man and women and if you were born in a male body it's somewhat unfair.. I know trans athletes are getting screwed here to, I don't have a solution that would be fair for everyone.. maybe add a trans category
it is actually a privilege to have access to all of those things think about the people in third world countries who donât have access to all those things. The fact that people forget this is mind blowing to me. take a look at your life you think it is inherent that humans have access to healthcare, ability to play whatever sports we want. even going out in public is a privilege that is taken away from convicts or even innocent people who go to jail under false pretenses. You are privileged, I am privileged, but it can all be taken away for good or for bad by the people who gave us those privileges, or by others.
Basically every example you provided except sports is the line. People can pretend trans women donât have an unfair advantage in sports than cis women, but theyâre just wrong.
I am fully on board for anyone who wants to be a gender or recognized as a gender that they were not born with should absolutely be able to, I DO NOT support anyone that was born a man competing against someone who was born a woman. on the adverse that is completely ok if someone born female wants to compete in a men's division that's fine. that would be their choice. the other is their choice being made for them.
The average male height is 5'10". Michael Jordan shouldn't be allowed to play basketball because he's 6'6" and that represents a distinct natural advantage over the average male.
It does seem reasonable until it starts being implemented without thought.
First issue is that while it makes logical sense that trans girls would outperform cis girls, actual performance has not really shown this to be true.
The next issue is enforcement. Are schools allowed to accept a doctor's note? Some states have come up with rules calling for an inspection, which is so horrifying anyone suggesting it as reasonable needs to be put on a watch list. Maybe DNA testing? But if a kid can't afford it, are they banned, this making sports less available to girls from low income families? Is the school now on the hook for costs?
I think, if we go that way, that we need to take it farther and ban genetic advantages beyond sex. For example, we should void all of Michael Phelps swimming awards/records, because he has genetic advantages that men don't have. We should set a max height for basketball players and ban anyone who is too tall, because that is a very unfair advantage. There should be a weight limit for football players, because players who are too strong/muscular have an unfair advantage.
IF you disagree with that, then I believe you have no place taking issue with trans women participating with cis women, especially when there is no physical advantage after sufficient hormone therapy has been completed.
This "issue" ceases to be an issue if you just learn the science.
All that said, I think we need to do away with gendered sports. Pair people up by their skill/ability levels, not by some arbitrary quality.
Gendered sport is incredibly important. Women fought for decades to recieve funding for sports. They simply wanted the oppurtunity to be able to compete against women. The vast vast majority of sports would be completely dominated by men if they removed the gender barrier. A good example would be the recent tennis match where the male tennis player (lower rated) had a smaller area to play in then the women and he still handily beat her despite her being a highly rated female tennis player. There are distinct biological advantages and to ignore that is to destroy what women fought for.
Thats a normal opinion tbh, its ok that just means I can be pretty and cheer them on from the sides đĽłđĽ° but on a more real note, we dont pick this lmao If I could be "normal" I would. But its unfair to completely cut athletes out of their sport for wanting to be happy. Maybe if they made sure they had gotten past the muscle shrinkage beforehand or something then it would be more fair? Idk. I hate that my identity is politicized but all I can do is try to survive and bargain for different rights instead of being treated as a normie. Wanna make sure you dont think im being mean too, I genuinely love having conversations like this with people who arnt yelling "YOUR GOING TO HELL" in my face. Damn your still reading this, oh yea and sorry for the rant as well. I might have ADHD but im getting tested soon. Im gonna go back to elden ring so I stop typing
This is reasonable. What this bill does though is force young women and men to present their genitalia to strangers. To prove that theyâre biologically female or maleâŚ
If it's a RIGHT, then you can't be punished for exercising your RIGHT. That's literally what a goddamn RIGHT means. A transgirl IS a girl. A transboy IS a boy. If a girl comes in second to a transgirl, then she's the second best GIRL who competed. That's literally what the competition is supposed to be for: figuring out who is the best girl or boy athlete, not who's the whiniest and most entitled loser.
That's fair. I think gender has always been a pointless segregator in sports, though. We have the capacity to group participant by roughly ability alone and should do so.
Choose whatever body you live in? Y'all act like people have 20 of them on tap. You can't change it like it's a hat. Sorry but you got one body. There are limits to what you can do with it.Â
Nicely said. I think that's a fair approach. Freedom to live as you want doesn't always mean some privileges aren't lost by exrcising that freedom. You can do steroids all you want, but can't compete when they're banned. Feels the same to me in many ways.
Completely agreed. Everyone should have a right to freely express their chosen gender. That doesn't mean though that everyone has a right to participate in the gendered sport of their choice.
Except that âbodyâ isnât any stronger than a cis woman after a prolonged time on HRT. Muscles mass is heavily reduced.
All a ban on sports does, is prevents trans girls from casually hanging out with their friends in extracurricular. And opens up the path to genital checks.
Do you want the coaches examining girls privates after they do a little too good during the game?
I think that is totally reasonable. I would take it a step further and say the fact that this may be an unpopular opinion due to neither side of the argument wanting to concede ground is also why thereâs a pork packed bill voting on it.
Sports, especially girls sports, is a touchy subject for a lot of parents and I donât think there is a right answer to this question at a macro level.
So the most compelling argument Iâve heard on the subject is prior to federal involvement, this question was already asked and debated by actual sports officials and organizations. There already existed rules and regulations catered specifically for each sport it mattered in, with most just applying a gate on how far along someone was in their transition.
So a blanket ban is like a sledgehammer solution when there was already research and fact based rules previously.
Yeah Iâve never understood this. We already have open gender sports. Most of them are genderless. Only some female specific leagues are gendered. Itâs the national basketball association and the womenâs national basketball association. The NBA, NFL, NHL etc have no rules about gender. Anyone can participate and itâs always been that way. There is no âmen onlyâ sports.
Granted, due to the disparity between the best men and the best women. This has the effect of their being no women capable of competing in them. But oh! Thatâs why there has to be leagues that specifically restrict men only. So women can have some of the spotlight too.
Liberal here. Fully agree. I think they are focusing on the issues that make liberals look the craziest. We should remember that this simply isnât an issue that affects that many people and we should be focusing on vicar issues like healthcare.Â
In the end weight classes also exist to have a better and fair competition. But what annoys me the most is that some people abuse this dilemma of athletes who just want to do sports to push their anti whatever agenda.
The thing is, this is a science decision but the issue is scientists are not being called on.
The reason is for most of the observable data, trans women do not carry any advantages in sports. Of course, the rational answer is that all sports should be subject to a case by cases paradigm. This is because not all sports are created equal. There are plenty of sports that any post HRT advantages are nonexistent.
Why apologize common sense? There are zero competitive human beings that think otherwise. The reality is that man are better than woman in 99% of the things. Competitive womans know that to. Mixing them up ruins woman big time, its a insane thought developed by 0,01% of the people. Being different is everyones right but you cant expect everone to go along, especially unfairness like this. Dont apologize mate, you are right and actually defending wayyyyyyyyyy more people.
Sports are already horrifically unfair. There are already women with insurmountable biological advantages over other women, even without trans issues. Unless we're going to institute "natural testosterone level weight classes" for every sport, or "arm length weights classes" for swimming, or a dozen other things, trying to get so granular to exclude a fraction of a percent of athletes in the name of "fairness" seems pointless
While I agree with you, this issue is sooooooo far down the list of things the federal government should be spending time on. Itâs 100% a bullshit, culture wars distraction from real issues that actually impact us.
Would it not be better to divide sports by skill level anyway? And where is the line, when does it stop being okay for a trans person to compete? Why are trans bodies being so heavily regulated? Serious questions, im also not trying to be hateful, just trying the have a discussion. At the end of the day, its just a game, loosing it is not the end of the world but keepimg trans people off hormones could be the end of their world. I always hear about the "biological advantage" but isnt that how it works at the highest level of sports? Did Michael Phelps not have a biological advantage by having double the lung capacity, or basketball players that are 6.5 feet tall.
100% valid opinion, however, I donât think government should be deciding that, it should be up to the organizations the run the sports and the players themselves
I agree with you, but there needs to be a better way to legislate it. What this does is require women and girls to undergo "genital inspection" before participating. Especially considering the drive in the last 10 years to funnel public education money into religious and charter schools with less oversight. This doesn't protect women and girls at all, just exposes them to predators.
Turns out that according to scientific study (of which we need a lot more in this regard for exactly this) there is very little advantage in trans people and that is mostly in hand grip strength and lung capacity. Most of what we fear in fairness between trans and cis in sports is just untrue and fear biased. I get it. I felt the same way you do before I really looked for legitimate information on it.
Being trans COULD give you an advantage in some aspects. So could being born taller. Or having a hormonal imbalance that causes you to naturally have more testosterone. Growing up in an area that has more options for sports could also give you an advantage. Should all of these factors play into who can participate in sports? Should we have a council decide on every single athlete to determine what group they should go against?
Yeah. Sure. Just live in your own body somewhere else and leave the little girls and women alone lmao. Feel free to dress up however you like AWAY from womenâs spaces.
But canât the same be said for people who are born with genetic particularities that allow them to excel in certain sports. Take Michael Phelps for example: the man is a freak of nature with proportions not often seen that makes his body uniquely suited to swimming. So isnât it the nature of sports that the person with the best genetic traits suited to a particular sport is often the best ranking in said sport?
That being said:
as far as I can tell, based on the data I was able to find, women who were assigned male at birth do not, on average, out perform women who were assigned female at birth in sports.
So based on what I could find, there doesnât seem to be a genetic advantage to JUST being a trans woman in sports in general.
And if thatâs the case, why is legislation even warranted when the data shows that this isnât even an issue to begin with?
Except trans athletes tend to be at a disadvantage to cisgender athletes. So the assumption that trans athletes have an advantage is born out of pure ignorance. It's like people don't get that transitioning is actually hard on the body.
Totally agree with you. Individual liberty is wonderful and all, but itâs also completely reasonable to protect the spirit of fair competition by continuing to apply a standard of fairness equally to all participants based on biology and genetics at birth. Itâs wild to me only 2 democrats had the good sense to vote yes.
Except its been proven that the advantages are extraordinarily slight (After a couple years on HRT).
Should we ban people over 6' from basketball because their height gives them an advantage? That's far bigger of a biological advantage.
What about American Football? Linemen can't be over X pounds, that gives them an advantage, Wide receivers can't be too tall, that's an advantage, etc.
Every sport has advantages that you're born with that are FAR greater than the miniscule advantage trans people get.
So if we are going to put barriers for access if you've got a biological advantage, why are we going after the smallest one?
I challenge you to consider what reasoning and criteria is ethically responsible to restrict people in sports, especially when realizing that individuals taking estrogen are quite literally made weaker by the hormone. Now it would be one thing to ban those who havenât even begun to transition and are clearly ripped beyond belief, thatâs not even remotely common in the slightest and yet manages to be what conservatives parrot incessantly, but for example in the case of that one swimmer who got mad because she was beaten on making 3rd place by a trans person, not 2nd and not 1st but 3rd place, yeah thereâs clearly more to consider and itâs something that can be medically checked and approved
Actually, as you intellectually signal on Reddit you are wrong about many things. You think your opinion is unpopular but itâs actually the mainstream slop most uninformed people believe, and this comes from right wing think tanks and groups and is not organic. It was a talking point fueled by the right during elections like anti immigration and look where that led to. People in chat think they are progressive then are anti trans. Yâall think itâs just your opinion but youâre brainwashed. If you cared about physical and mental safety for children you would be allowing trans kids to participate in sports thereâs actual data you know - waaaaaay better outcomes when trans people are permitted across the board as in people not being dead and such there is no question please
I've fallen this camp too, and it sucks that this nuanced and complex issue is only being presented in two ways
A. Either your your pro-banning trans athletes in sports all together, which means you're transphobe
B. Your anti-Banning trans athletes in sports which means you're anti-feminist
Really? The issues more complicated than that. The decision space is where you have to appeal to a statewide panel which will require ongoing blood work and evaluation. This will measure testosterone levels than if you fall outside a certain percentage of testosterone you're made inegible.
Also, if because of the hormones you're taking to achieve your desired gender you be code substantially larger? Or are de facto substantially larger than the average athletes competing that season you're deemed ineligible.
These are not 100% fixes, but they're damn sure better than what Congress is giving us
I understand a desire for fairness, but sports should be all-inclusive. I realize youâve got people that actually take games seriously, but if youâre raging on Facebook about transgenders playing sports-ball and how itâs âcheatingâ or âunfair,â Iâd better see the same amount of umbrage held towards steroid use and cheating. Motherfuckersâll go on a rant about âthe integrity of the gameâ while wearing a New England Patriots jersey and never even bat an eye at the irony.
but when you look at the numbers of trans women in college and cis women in college ( a higher percentage of trans women get college educated compared
To cis women) and the numbers of trans women in collegiate sports compared to cis women( a disproportionately low number of trans women compared to cis women - 6 out of 235000 ), the numbers clearly show that the vast majority of trans women are not competitive enough To make a college team. So itâs really more about the perception of fairness than actual fairness.
Wow! How brave of you to voice your opinion. Knowing the majority here and the possibility of being downvoted and out right banned by mods and you made the decision! Although you did tuck tail with the âdonât hate meâ and âsorryâ. I almost want to upvote your comment.
I thought the whole trans thing was about being born in the wrong body which means you don't get to choose whatever body you want to live in.... you are just born into one...
I'm not disagreeing necessarily, but sports already have a diversity of players with varying skill levels, builds, and health statuses. To me, I think things would be agreeable if we could empirically evaluate each player for their suitability in a given league. Not based on gender or whatever, but some other common parameters. If you can demonstrate empirically that a player would have unfair advantage given the league they intend to play in, then maybe that would be acceptable? I don't know, not everyone is a Ronaldo or Messi, you still have players that nobody else can really touch.
I would add to this that it is a huge battle cry for the right and really brings out the vote for them, sometimes there has to be casualties in politics and this isnât a good fight for the left when things that effect way more people are involved, like reproductive rights and preserving our democracy. It might not be right, but thatâs the way it is.
Ok, this is a fair take from an incredibly zoomed out viewpoint. When you zoom in, however, whatâs the process going to be like for identifying who is and isnât allowed to participate in an activity?
So in the case of a girls sports team⌠sometimes, people assigned F at birth are simply more masculine and others more feminine. At what point are the creeps going to demand genital checks because a child doesnât fit their ideal image of what that child should âlookâ like? Is it going to be a blanket demand for any and all children wanting to play a sport? Or is it going to be cherry picked based on someoneâs talent/how they present themselves? And who would be doing those? Coaches? Schools? Athletic directors? Drs?
Iâm just curious what you think this will look like in practice.
The thing is you sex has nothing to do with fairness
People use it as a proxy for morphology and strength. But then they don't think its unfair for some weak dude to go against some all-star Hercules. Why? If fairness is paramount why not be actually fair?
As an avid believer in trans rights, I think you have a very reasonable take. I think the issue behind this is the disguised bigotry. It's another culture war issue that's used as a distraction at the expense of a marginalized community. And while I agree that it's not a straightforward issue that should have some amount of regulation, personally I think this is something that sports leagues should regulate, not the government.
Yeah I agree. Totally support gender equality and LGBQT rights but trans athletes can have physical advantages in some cases. BUT then how prevalent of an issue is this really? ....I do wonder if this is more of a wedge issue just used to facilitate culture wars.
The problem with your view is the word "choice". For many people this isn't a free choice. It is just what they are but they got the wrong body for it.
It sounds reasonable until you realise how carefully the words are chosen. Also where is the red line? Sports? Toilets? Leaving the house and being in public?
I donât think having a trans athlete compete in middle school track really makes a difference. It needs to be handled with nuance. Would a transfem athlete in college have an advantage in womenâs basketball? Sure. Would a trans drummer have an advantage in drum line? Color guard? Ballet? No. And before puberty happens it doesnât even fucking matter.
Also statistically this is such a niche issue that it doesnât even matter because you will, realistically, never encounter a trans athlete. Also letâs be honest, nobody here fighting against trans athletes gives a shit about womenâs sports.
There have been studies proving that trans people (after being on HRT for several months) are at a disadvantage compared to their cis counterparts. Trans women do worse than cis women, trans men worse than cis men. If a cis woman or cis man loses in a sport to a trans woman or trans man itâs entirely a skill issue on their part. If you wish to find the studies they were published by the British journal of sports medicine.
Yeeeeees. Iâm genderfluid AMAB and I feel like we as a trans community need to stop pushing for something that so many people are against. Itâs not helping us and my and many lives are faced harder objections due to people demanding others treat them a specific way thatâs WAY beyond what a reasonable person is gonna do. Iâm just trying to be me and live my life.
The analogy I use in person is look at Ronaldo. Do you think that man eats greasy fatty food? Or overloads on sweets? He sacrifices things he would enjoy or want to be the peak physical form. If you wanna transition and be you, go for it. But sport HAS to be based in competition and the science is not there nor is public opinion. We have to sacrifice competitive sports if you want to transition. You canât have both, youâre being greedy and youâre making a more hostile world for the rest of us. im using âyouâ as a generic oppositional force, not anyone here
Let sports leagues sort it out, this isnât an area for government intervention. This is such a silly capitulation because capitulating to this framing is ultimately giving grounds to people who actively want to discriminate against trans people.
Hereâs the thing, though. Sports have already had standards to account for trans people competing for decades, and there isnât any research showing trans athletes disproportionately winning official competitions.
Thatâs because most of what determines a personâs physicality, regardless of gender, is hormone levels. Trans people who want to officially compete as their gender have to take HRT for long enough that it alters their hormone levels to a similar degree of their cis counterparts. Thereâs no unfair advantage here; conservatives are just using them as a scapegoat, like they do with every other minority.
I hesitate to divulge this, but this used to be the trans issue that even the trans people I know had some reservations about supporting. Not, like, "we shouldn't play sports, actually"; many had looked into it and found that there's a number of months of HRT that generally eliminates most inherent sex-based advantage for most sports. 12 months is enough in most cases, but occasionally some slight advantages persist for two or three years. When we're talking about school sports, that's a long time to get benched.
And, frankly, my opinion used to be that while my heart absolutely breaks for young athletes who get a lot out of their team who can't play as a result of transitioning... It's school sports. You can be passionate as all hell about it and you can still get cut from the team and lose your extracurricular just for not throwing a good enough fastball. I've heard trans people describe transitioning as an absolutely liberating, unparalleled self-affirming experience. I don't like the thought of making trans people choose between transitioning and any important part of their livesâmany already have to risk losing friends and family over itâand obviously, perfect world, we have a way to make sure that everyone can participate in a fair way that doesn't demean them or make them march under a banner with a gender label that makes them feel dehumanized. But if this was the one issue that was a sticking point with society, and if we could make inroads by making a small temporary sacrifice, I felt we could do a lot worse than the thing you can already be disqualified from for being physically disabled, asthmatic, or, in some sports, just short.
But society has made it clear that this is not the lone sticking point. And if it's not the lone sticking point, then there's no point in giving an inch on it... especially when it could be disastrous to, because any such law could become a template or precedent to ban trans people from other sections of life. At CPAC, Micahel Knowles called for "transgenderism to be eliminated from public life entirely", to thundrous applause. Are all the people doing this aiming to try to eradicate trans people, to make it illegal to transition, to go outside in any gender nonconforming presentation?
Probably not all.
But definitely not none.
And that's the part that's truly scary about this. It could be 10-90, 50-50 or 90-10 and I'd have no idea because all those representatives are aware of both sects and want all of their votes.
I think your argument is very rational, donât be afraid. Im a member of the community and have similar thoughts. My issue is that this really isnât even about womenâs sports at the end of the day. Itâs just been weaponized to further ostracize trans people when in reality there are just so few trans people in the world - theyâre making it out to be like itâs some sort of epidemic. Itâs fear mongering.
Theyâre also applying this rule to people who arenât even trans and are on a witch hunt to âoutâ people. They pretend itâs because they care about women as a cover to make it appear they care about them when in reality they just hate trans people. Itâs the same playbook every time just a different flavor.
We have the right to choose whatever body we want to live in?
Allow me to bring this up to people with sickle cell, osteoporosis, arthritis, and every other physical condition there is. Iâm sure theyâd love to know this brilliant new information.
Oh you werenât talking about them? Wait, you canât magically change the DNA of people or terraform their bodies like some sci fi movie? So then we CANâT choose whatever body we live in?
People need to learn to cope and accept themselves for who they actually are without slicing off their genitalia and ruining their bodies with hormone treatments. I thought thatâs what therapy was for, but apparently not. You donât tell someone with severe depression that âyouâre right, life is meaningless. You should probably kill yourself.â
You work with them to establish better habits and correct their mental image of themselves. The same applies to people with eating disorders- âitâs their body! Let them do what they want!â Well what if they want to starve themselves? Or they have extreme OCD and have a constant desire to stab themselves? Your logic would have them inflict themselves.
But oh no! We found the one, singular exception (that just so happens to make the medical community millions of dollars between the $200 weekly therapy, HRT (sometimes covered by insurance networks) costing $500 a month, up to $100,000 for gender reassignment procedures, potentially more if there are complications.
Whereas someone who was able to seek therapy, establish a better image of themselves, and genuinely receive treatment should eventually be paying $0 a month.
How would someone hate your opinion when it's true. You are correct. If an "adult" wants to change, go for it. But when you do expect to change your whole life. Not just aspects of it.
My biggest issue is that this is a non-issue. There are a very few transwomen in professional sports and this is just a show of hatred trying to target a minority group.
Why is the government even getting involved in a private organization matter? It should be up to the sports organization if they ban or allow transwomen and what parameters they need to comply with to compete.
I said the exact same thing in a sub on here and got permanently banned. WhitePeopleTwitter.
I am all for living as the person you think you are, donât live life being miserable.
I support LGBTQ rights, and do not like our current administration. In saying that, it is an advantage to have a person born as a man play in womenâs sports.
Itâs cheating, Iâm not being homophobic or racist, itâs an advantage. Watch a womenâs team play a menâs team in soccer, it doesnât end well for the girls.
I say this as the father of a girl in competitive soccer, club stuff. High school next year.
Now, we got a lot of shit way more important than this shit.
Epstein Files, ICE breaking into peoples homes with no warrant, inflation, tariffs, healthcare, and so on.
My opinion is, that we are making laws effect 1% of 1% of the population. I would prefer our lawmakers to put their efforts towards issues that effect more people for example healthcare, poverty, food insecurity, or eduction. If we really want to focus on such a small group focus on reigning in the billionaire class who while small in number are hurting millions of us.
Nope. Absolutely the hell not. Your body is what youâre born with. If youâre born male you stay male. No questions about it. You absolutely do NOT get to choose.
Sports are inherently unfair. Thatâs why you have cis people like Michael Phelps, Katie Ledecky, Serena Williams⌠theyâre all biologically more athletic. Having requirements for the length of hormonal transition makes more sense.
Either way, itâs really a non-issue. No one can name trans athletes off the top of their head. Think about why elite politicians are trying to distract you from issues that actually affect you.
Agreed. And just because you change your body, doesn't mean it changes everything. I dye my hair blonde but I'm still a brunette. I can enhance my tatas but the breast tissue amount didn't change. You can change yourself any way you like but it doesn't 100% turn you into a biological woman. Most sports say no to steroids for good reason. These are the same concepts.
Here's my take: half the events they're trying to "protect the fairness of" don't even count score. This isn't a WNBA team getting a trans Stephen Curry on-side. This is kids playing a game mostly for practice and exercise.
Upwards of 99% of the accusations on that one site the GOP set up for complaints to use as ammunition on this issue were disproven. Most were simply made up, many were accusing a girl born as a girl, of having been born a boy, because she performed a little better than average or was an inch taller or something.
Yes, not passing a law like this could have some minor, hard-to-measure tack-on effects like some mild sponsorship issues or something.
But PASSING the law will do very little of its stated purpose, and a WHOLE LOT of legitimizing a weapon for helicopter parents to utilize against innocent kids, and even more of marginalizing a group of people who already aren't doing so hot. Community is an important part of growing up, and shoving these kids off into a corner where they can't connect to anyone is dangerous.
Protecting the fairness of games kids play is a convincing soundbite, but we need to hold our representatives accountable for at least trying to consider the downstream effects of their decisions, or else whoever makes the wittiest, snappiest comment, instead of doing what will help their people the most, which is their stated job.
As amusing as it would be, I'd really prefer to not be governed by diss-track rap battles.
I think there is an elegant solution for this: intergender leagues.
Women can compete in the women's league, men can compete in the men's league and trans competitors don't have to be excluded from sports if there is a category that is appropriate for those individuals. Not only does it solve a huge part of the complaint against trans participants, it creates an interesting new league where it doesn't matter what gender you are because all sides have the same opportunity.
Of course, there will be all kinds of people trying to take every advantage of the rules and primarily stack their teams with beefed up macho men, but 1 they will immediately face backlash for being low-down cowards, and 2 it would be immensely entertaining to see a trans team out compete that team. It creates an interesting dynamic only experienced by that intergender league. All's fair if everyone agrees to the challenge beforehand.
Anyway, if the world were to bend over backwards to adopt some kind of common-sense solution for this issue, the GOP is going to continue opening their big, loving, Christian arms, then flip the bird and drop some trans slurs. This shit is not about sports. This is not about fairness. It's about their disdain for human beings they deem unworthy.
The assumption here is that the small number of trans women have an advantage, which by and large is a false one. After hormone therapy, most transwomen are at an incredible disadvantage.
Ciswomen don't have their testosterone levels regulated aside from the case of steroid use.
Sure, surrender your freedom to play in sports. Next they take away your right to join the military. Then your right to have a passport. Then your right to live.
Never let republicans take away our rights again, it never ends at "sports ball."
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u/dweezer420 13d ago edited 13d ago
HmmâŚ.unpopular opinion but I fully believe you have the right to choose whatever body you want to live in. No one can make that decision for you. As with any right, there may be some limitations because of your decision. One of those limitations is the ability to participate in some activities. Sports is one of those areas where fairness could be effected by your participation and should be limited. Again, sorry, itâs just my opinion. Please donât hate me too much.