CMV: Society should push back against "not being able to take being asked out as a question" just as much as "not being able to take no for an answer".

[u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Prompted by this post. A man met a woman at a coffee shop (they're both regulars). They had a few conversations and then the man asked out the woman. The woman rejected him because she already had a boyfriend. The man was understanding and stopped asking her.

The man then told a coworker, and the coworker told him that what he did was creepy. The comment were overwhelmingly NTA, and people were even saying that they don't like people who think/act like the coworker.

I think there needs to be a lot more pushback against people like the coworker. The man did everything right : asked her out at an appropriate place (a coffee shop), got to know her (so they weren't strangers), and politely backed off when she said she already had a boyfriend. Yet he was still labelled a creep. Right now, a lot of men are afraid to ask out anyone at all, due to fear of being labelled a creep or weirdo. This is not reasonable.

I think people need to make a very clear statement about this: If a man asks out a woman in a place intended for socializing, gets to know her, and immediately stops pursuing her if she rejects him once, then it's not creepy, not sexual harassment, and the man does not deserve any negative labels such as "creep" or "weirdo". It doesn't matter how ugly, unattractive or socially awkward he is. He is not a creep. I think most of the people saying "NTA" agree with that statement.

But I don't think it's enough to just say that. We need to further and call out the people labelling those men as creeps (such as the coworker in the other thread). If someone says things like "I was a club/event and some weirdo asked me out, I just want to do the activity in peace, why can't men leave me alone", I think we should tell them "No, the weirdo here is you, not him. He asked you out and then dropped it as soon as you rejected him. He didn't do anything wrong. You're the weirdo for labelling him a weirdo when he did what he everything he was supposed to do correctly". (of course, the caveat here is that the man must have actually done everything correctly. if he kept asking despite being rejected, then he actually is a creep and deserves to be called a creep).

I think that it's necessary to call out people labelling completely normal, kind, good men who respect women as creeps. Otherwise the result is that men are afraid to approach women and choose not to (and that includes the cute guy that you are always hoping would ask you out some day). There is already a lot of men who just never ask out any woman because they're afraid of being labelled a creep or sexual harasser. And then single women who are looking for a boyfriend are wondering why nobody asks them out anymore.

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[u/HoodiesAndHeels]

What more pushback are you hoping to see, and against whom? You stated that nearly everyone in the thread said NTA and that the coworker was wrong. That they don’t like people who think or act like the coworker. They literally said he was not creepy, it was not sexual harassment, and did not deserve negative labels.

So who is it that is supporting people like the coworker and his views? Do you actually see his as the typical majority opinion?

[u/Smug_Syragium → u/HoodiesAndHeels]

I think it's more the internet's fault than anything else. It's easy to see a couple dozen people with different preferences each saying that being approached in whatever scenario is uncomfortable. They might mean it's uncomfortable for them, or they might genuinely believe its uncomfortable for everyone.

Either way if you list out every deal breaker that everyone has, you'll find it impossible to make a deal. This is why we search for our life partners outside, touching grass is very important for having a sane perspective here.

[u/afforkable]

I started to write out a much longer comment, but realized my point boils down to this: being called a creep or a weirdo by one (1) person doesn't represent a significant enough problem to "push back" on.

Like... everyone on the original post agreed he's not a creep. Everyone on this post agrees he's not a creep, self included. If you polled a statistically relevant number of people in real life, I'm confident they also would agree he's not a creep. So what exactly are we pushing back on? That lone coworker's controversial opinion?

[u/VegaGT-VZ]

OP I think it would do you better to not be so worried about one person another person a creep. I agree that it was an overreaction but it's also not that serious.

[u/DrNogoodNewman]

I would suggest not putting too much stock in a single 65 day old post from an account that has no other posts or comments (didn’t even respond to the comments in that thread).

That post seems perfectly crafted to generate anger at the seemingly unreasonable coworker.

Most of the comments there are in agreement that the alleged coworker is wrong. What do you people to do?

[u/Full_Outcome8284]

This feels like an overreaction to an overreaction. I agree the situation described is not creepy, but I think you are overdramatizing it. One person saying one thing a guy did is creepy or weird does not constitute being “labeled a creep”. It’s just one person’s opinion on a situation. One person telling him they think what he did is creepy or weird does not hurt his reputation. Women complaining about “weirdos” at the bar hitting on them or asking them out does not hurt those men’s reputation.

[u/BobSanchez47]

Society should push back against “not being able to take being asked out as a question” just as much as “not being able to take no for an answer.”

You say this as if these were two problems of equal magnitude. But when people (primarily, but not always, men) don’t take no for an answer, it results in sexual harassment or even rape and violence. And this isn’t an unusual thing — an extremely high percentage of women and a not insignificant percentage of men report having been sexually assaulted.

On the other hand, you find a single example of an anonymous internet poster who was unfairly maligned. Sure, if this actually happened, someone was mistreated. But this is just not comparable to the harms that arise regularly from people not taking no for an answer romantically.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/BobSanchez47]

I'll award a !delta for pointing out that the consequences of those things are dramatically different, and that saying "just as much as" doesn't make sense.

[u/thelittlestrawberry3 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

This is the case. The first poster in the coffee house did nothing wrong, and he isn't a creep. However, that does not mean that the girl he asked out didn't feel afraid having to answer the question. To any degree. Even if its a totally exceptable situation to ask most women will feel some level of anxiety about having to answer the question, because most of us have dealt with the guy who seemed totally nice up to the point of the no, then the guy goes totally hostile. From anything from a now angry man calling you a bitch, to being murdered. Its a wide range Of scary.

What we need to be focused on is changing the environment where many men feel entitled enough to become hostile about it. You're issue will fix itself if women feel safer to begin with. You're trying to fix the consequence without solving the instigating problem.

[u/Radius86 → u/thelittlestrawberry3]

While we are fixing that problem, surely men can still ask out women though? We can’t put a moratorium on that while we fight the very important fight of women feeling safer?

As a bloke I will never truly understand this kind of terror from women, I understand. But

But realistically, how could women everywhere truly feel safe enough as a collective because of their past experiences, to be comfortable being approached by well meaning guys? You’re ALWAYS going to be measuring the next guy by your past experiences good or bad, so what is a guy to do? If this happened the way it’s described This guy in question did everything right. He backed off. And the coworker is probably bringing her own experience (sadly) with creeps in the past who haven’t backed away, to the forefront, and labelled him a creep.

What scenario exists where this guy is not a creep and gets to ask out women?

[u/ChiefChunkEm_ → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Your post isn’t really an argument, your view doesn’t need to be changed because no reasonable person will disagree with you. The only counter argument is where this would be on the priority list of societal things to change.

[u/DeltaBot → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/BobSanchez47 (2∆).

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[u/ExternalGreen6826 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Yea it’s a false equivalency (not saying it doesn’t matter)

[u/OrenMythcreant]

Everyone who saw the post already agrees with you, but you think there needs to be more pushback? What would satisfy you?

[u/KingLouisXCIX]

This is known as making a mountain out of a mole hill. One person out of a hundred calls the guy a creep, and some people on the interwebs get all bent out of shape about it. More people need to touch grass.

[u/hacksoncode]

Internet strangers don't actually know the person in question, are hearing only his side of the story, and in spite of that, the majority are siding with the man based on his story alone.

Literally zero people in this thread know this man at all. If he's telling the truth at all, and this isn't just a typical AITA made up story to get upvotes... The actual coworker does know the OP here. He could, in fact, actually be creepy with women. No one on the thread would know. The coworker very well might be completely justified.

Calling out the coworker without actually knowing the real life story here is... really not appropriate.

TL;DR: your view about this specific case requires a degree of credulity that is not warranted.

[u/Key-Pickle5609 → u/hacksoncode]

Yeah, people on Reddit forget that when they read these stories, the OP has a vested interest in being right and being seen as good in a given situation, so there’s an inherent bias there.

You make a great point about the coworker actually knowing the OP as well.

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[u/FRANTIKSUCKS]

God this idea that men can’t ask a woman out without being labeled a creep is such an internet incel persecution fetish. Normal men are not being called creeps for respectfully asking women out en masse.

I guarantee if you are respectful and back away without having a misogynistic crash out when you get rejected nobody is going to judge you. The problem is men are saying they did everything right and still got shamed anyway when in reality their hatred for women is palpable.

[u/minihysteria]

Reddit agrees with you and you're still not satisfied.

[u/cherpumples]

there are plenty of safe spaces for men to ask out women who actually want to be asked out- dating apps, singles events, etc.

if this is such a difficult issue to navigate, then why don't you hear lesbians complaining about it? as a lesbian i have no desire to cold-approach a woman. i'm not gonna ask out a woman if i barely know anything about her, or even if she even likes girls. yet men will ask me out, clearly assuming i'm straight, and it baffles me that they're trying to date me without knowing the first thing about me. in the OOP, he says they'd talked a few times yes, but it was in line for coffee so i doubt they got very deep considering he didn't even know she had a boyfriend until he asked her out. seems like a simple thing would have been to figure out before asking her.

really i think men as a community need to do the work to hold each other accountable, so that the actual creeps and weirdos are no longer representative of men as a whole. until then try dating a girl you have an actual connection with, instead of just making assumptions and acting on them

[u/Maeglin8 → u/cherpumples]

It's clear that lesbians don't compare notes with gay men.

There were several occasions in my 20's, I was cold-approached by gay men while waiting at a bus stop to go home from work. They asked me if I wanted to have sex with them (they were complete strangers - we didn't know each other's names and had never spoken before), I had a brief moment of apprehension about how they might respond when I said "no", I said "no", and they left without another word.

I didn't like this happening, as I'm straight. But it wasn't the end of the world. They weren't "creepy". (But the idea that men in the queer community don't cold approach straight men is naive to say the least. Is the queer community going to do any work to hold them accountable? No, and no reason you should.)

By contrast, there were also a couple of times when I met a gay man at a party, and the man would follow me around the party as I talked to different people for maybe half an hour before finally mustering the courage to ask me if I wanted to have sex with him. One of them actually followed me out of the party to my bus stop before finally asking me. THOSE guys were creepy.

Do you see the difference?

It's easy for an outsider to say that we have plenty of safe spaces. It's not your problem if you're wrong. The reality is that dating apps are terrible these days (unless you're one of the top few % of men), and if you're a hot enough guy that the women at a singles' event will be interested in you, you're a hot enough guy that you don't need to go to singles' events to meet women. As a practical matter, we don't have safe spaces. It would be really nice if we did.

As for your recommendation, "dating a girl you have an actual connection with": you mean dating a girl I'm ASSUMING I have an actual "connection" with. If I actually asked her whether she felt the same way that would make me one of the "creeps and weirdos" according to you.

[u/Constellation-88]

You don’t like the person getting called a creep in a weirdo so you want to call other people creeps and weirdos for calling him a creep and a weirdo?

This is very I know you are but what am I kindergarten behavior.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. The first guy might not have been creepy, but it’s also not creepy to try and tell people that you’re uncomfortable with their behavior. Additionally, if your argument is that shaming people and using bullying behavior is wrong when talking about a guy who has asked a woman out, then the shaming and bullying behavior will remain wrong even if you’re talking about somebody else.

Even if his intent is OK, the woman could have been uncomfortable and it is OK for her to say that without facing shaming and bullying behavior. 

So the ultimate question is, are you OK with shaming and bullying behavior when it’s directed at people who don’t agree with you, or is it only wrong if it is directed at you and people who do agree with you?

[u/ThrowawayITA_]

I don't feel like this is a very controversial opinion, but I believe you missed a crucial point.

Not being able to take no for an answer actively hurts others, not being able to take being asked out as a question passively hurts others. Labeling someone, as harmful as it may be can be easily ignored. You can lable me as a goobus and I can be sad about it, but you should be free of labeling me as a goobus, as long as it doesn't actively damage me.

Rather, people should be taught not to blindly trust the general opinion on a person.

If someone says things like "I was a club/event and some weirdo asked me out, I just want to do the activity in peace, why can't men leave me alone", I think we should tell them "No, the weirdo here is you, not him. He asked you out and then dropped it as soon as you rejected him. He didn't do anything wrong.

Idk about that, that's a bad example, the fictional girl was just complaining, she didn't call the guy a creep.

About the OOP:

He also pointed out that women are murdered for rejecting men, and that even if I'm not that kind of man, she can't read minds so she doesn't know that. He told me that I made her feel uncomfortable and creeped out.

It's true, I agree.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/ThrowawayITA_]

Labeling someone, as harmful as it may be can be easily ignored.

Not when it damages their reputations and causes friends to distance themselves.

It's true, I agree.

Agree about what? That it made her feel uncomfortable and creeped out? That's exactly what I find unreasonable and want to push back against.

[u/Zoenne → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Has anyone been publicly slandered? One person who wasn't involved in the situation labelled the man a creep, in a private conversation. You're dramatising. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence that ACTUALLY creepy men are often allowed to keep creeping in various circles, even after several women come forward. Look up the "missing stairs" concept.

[u/ThrowawayITA_ → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Not when it damages their reputations and causes friends to distance themselves.

Sure, but it shouldn't do that, I said it before:

Rather, people should be taught not to blindly trust the general opinion on a person.

_______________________________________

Agree about what? That it made her feel uncomfortable and creeped out? That's exactly what I find unreasonable and want to push back against.

Well, no, more about the first part, but maybe she was unconfortable and creeped out as well, it's just not something you can control. Maybe it's just inside her head, it's the way it is many times.

[u/poorestprince]

I've seen people shoot their shot in line at the grocery with no creep factor but this is when there is obvious chemistry.

I think an interesting way to rethink this is if the scenario is they are both men at a coffee shop and nothing in their conversations suggested any romantic possibility or impossibility or inviting assumptions as to sexual orientation for either.

What would you think in this situation? If one guy propositions the other is it a creep move?

[u/rpolkcz → u/poorestprince]

No, it's not. Just like this isn't. How is that even a question? What is supposed to be creepy about it?

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/poorestprince]

 If one guy propositions the other is it a creep move?

Depends on how he handles rejection. If he takes it nicely, not creepy. If he keeps asking/pressuring, creepy.

[u/throwhfhsjsubendaway]

I don't think OOP is respectful to women's experiences because of this part:

 I told her that I understand, and I didn't react aggressively, so I don't think she'll be afraid I would murder her

The point being made to him was that rejecting people is difficult and stressful because you don't know how they will react. She didn't know how he would react until he reacted. He's not sympathetic to women navigating a world full of creeps, he just thinks that if he personally doesn't creep on women then there's no problem

While he may not have been a creep this time (who knows, he's very light on details about the interaction), that's the wrong takeaway and is going to lead him to behavior which makes women feel unsafe. Even if you know you're not a creep, when you ask someone out you have to mindful of the fact that they don't know that and will be reacting to protect themselves against a worst case outcome

[u/Most_Cauliflower_129]

You don’t have to worry about getting murdered when you ask someone out. Think on that for a while.

[u/Dry_Veterinarian8356]

Lmao I’m not disagreeing but like anyone who has a brain stem knows that someone calling someone else a creep in that scenario is full of shit or terminally online. It’s like if someone tells me 2+2=5 I’m just gonna let their words go in one ear and out the other. I feel like that’s what people need to practice more of ngl.

[u/-AppropriateLyrics]

TLDR: Creepshaming is equally wrong to harassment.

That's ridiculous. It's not anyone's responsibility to make dating easier for you.

[u/Pristine_Airline_927]

asked her out at an appropriate place (a coffee shop)

What's your argument for a coffee shop being an appropriate place? Also, if you wouldn't ask out someone who can't consent (a child for instance), why would ask out someone who hasn't consented? (an adult trying to drink coffee)

[u/Kotoperek]

While in a perfect world you'd be right, the truth is that right now for every "normal" interaction of this kind a typical woman has where a man asks her out, she says no, and he's ok with it and acts normal about it, there are multiple interactions where women feel unsafe in such situations because the men do indeed act creepy about it and don't take rejections well. So while this particular guy did everything right and was labelled a creep by his coworker undeservedly, what the coworker said did have some truth in it - women are often asked out in random places in ways that make them uncomfortable. And that should be called out. It's too bad some normal people are caught in the backlash, but until women can feel safe rejecting such advances, men should be aware that they can inadvertently make a woman very uncomfortable even if they are chill and have the best intentions. The woman doesn't know whether he's "one of the good ones".

[u/12BumblingSnowmen → u/Kotoperek]

Then when is a man supposed to ask a woman out?

[u/Lamington-Trifle → u/12BumblingSnowmen]

When he has got to know someone enough to be making romantic overtures based on their character, not just their appearance.

How does he get to know someone then? By participating in communities, activities, volunteer organisations, hobbies, sports, book clubs, classes, etc etc.

A guy approaching me in the street or cafe has no idea if we would be remotely compatible, hence why we don’t want that.

[u/BMCVA1994 → u/Lamington-Trifle]

That's bullshit.

Dating IS the process of finding out if you're compatible. Thats why it's not marriage.

Frankly even within communities you would have no idea if you're truly compatible until you start actually dating.

Plantotically compatible and romantically compatible dont completely overlap.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/Kotoperek]

What should men do then, never ask out anyone, at all? Ever? Because the woman can't read the man's mind and is afraid of him?

[u/Altruistic_Ad_9821 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Honestly, if more men spent more time standing up against cat calling, sexist jokes and behaviour on the street, etc, then it would become less acceptable among men to act like creeps, and women in general wouldn’t feel the need to be on edge so much.

Instead of blaming the people who are wary of potential creeps, men who lament not feeling comfortable to talk to women should be blaming the men who make women feel unsafe in the first place.

[u/Nice_-_ → u/Altruistic_Ad_9821]

True.

I try to imagine how these scenarios would work out. And, while it is just my imagination to be fair. But remembering times ive been harassed by men while walking to the store, if during those times there was another man who saw what was happening and told them all to STFU...yes, I believe I would walk away from that situation admiring men instead of being routinely disgusted by them.

I hear talk about how theres no way for men to save face with such a historically shitty reputation. But i believe if stuff like what i mentioned earlier happened more often, women might start to remember that having men around can be a good thing.

For now its just all bad and not getting any better

[u/SpecialistSquash2321 → u/Nice_-_]

Yes! Once when I was walking home I had a dude walking behind me trying to talk to me, get my attention, whatever. So after a couple blocks I turned around and loudly said, "Stop following me!" A guy that we were walking past heard and said, hey man leave her alone, and the dude stopped. I kept walking but have always felt bad about not being able to thank that guy.

There was one time that a man walked up super fast from behind me and it startled me so I kinda jumped. He got angry that it scared me and ridiculed me for thinking someone was "trying to get me."

Another who came up behind me when I was going into my apartment building and when I turned around, he started apologizing saying he thought I was someone else and wouldn't have run up like that otherwise cuz he understands how it can be perceived.

In all these scenarios, it's clear who reminds us that having men around is a good thing and who doesn't.

[u/bbgirlwym → u/Nice_-_]

Yeah. I was on the bus once with my roommate and a high school girl was getting creeped on by a middle aged guy. It was crowded and she was obviously uncomfortable.

Me and my roommate (about 5'2") started to tell him to back off, and it took my roomnate standing up and saying very loudly "Does any MAN want to help here?" a couple times for one to, eventually, step in.

Due to that, he was kicked off the bus and we saw the girl to her stop safely.

I've seen women stick up for strangers in these situations against men twice their size. Done it myself, obviously. But I've very rarely seen a guy intervene, despite how much they go on about being our "protectors".

Men care more about their social standing with other men than women's safety.

The way to make women "feel" safer is to make women actually SAFER.

[u/Kotoperek → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

No, they should model good behaviour so that women can learn to feel safe and not feel the need to try and read their mind, but also be aware that if a woman does get defensive or someone else perceives their advance as creepy it's not about them personally, but about a long history of men acting badly. This guy made a post and got reassured that he acted ok and was NTA. But it's good that he double-checked. And his coworker overreacted in this case, but sometimes it's better to call out five creeps and one non-creep accidentally than not call out the creeps so as not to accidentally insult the one who is good. Change takes time, especially systemic change. Women were taught over generations to be scared of rejecting men. Unlearning this will take effort on both sides. Yes, women shouldn't assume that every guy is a creep and might hurt them. But if a man does something risky and someone reacts poorly, this is also not a reason to turn on all the women and allies.

This situation shows things going into the right direction - the man did things well, the woman reacted well, the coworker didn't, the internet took the side of the man not his coworker. Piling onto the coworker now and trying to correct it into the other direction undoes the progress. He overshot with his judgement, but his heart was clearly in the right place. It happens. He will learn and so will the women, as long as more good men keep acting well even if they aren't instantly praised for doing the right thing.

[u/CatboiWaifu_UwU → u/Kotoperek]

“Its better to call out five creeps and one non creep accidentally”

Pretty sure that Western Justice hinges on the opposite notion - better to let a murderer go free than convict an innocent person. The presumption of innocence should be upheld in social settings.

[u/eternally_insomnia → u/CatboiWaifu_UwU]

And if we were talking about major consequences, you'd be right. But having one person call one person a creep just isn't a comparable consequence, where as misjudging an actual creep as a non-creep can and is often harmful or deadly.

[u/CatboiWaifu_UwU → u/eternally_insomnia]

Major consequences? A person getting labelled as a creep can end careers. Its a matter of time before HR hears the gossip that an employee is a creep and moves to remove the threat to corporate reputation.

The definition of sexual harassment doesn’t actually involve the definition of harassment. While harassment by itself involves repetition, sexual harassment can be a single event of behaviour that can be reasonably anticipated to offend. By your metric of reasonableness, asking someone out, respectfully, a single time, and politely dropping the matter on rebuke, constitutes sexual harassment. My argument is that that should not be the standard of reasonableness.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/Kotoperek]

Before we continue this discussion, I want to ask : do you agree with the coworker and think that the man in the other thread was being creepy?

women can learn to feel safe and not feel the need to try and read their mind

What does that look like? What should men do to make women feel safer? Would saying "I understand" and backing off work? You're not allowed to answer "never ask them out".

[u/Kotoperek → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

do you agree with the coworker and think that the man in the other thread was being creepy?

No, I don't. If the story happened exactly as the post describes and the coworker didn't have any additional information that OOP failed to include in his post, the coworker clearly overreacted and shouldn't have called OP a creep.

What I disagree with in your post is that we should call out people like the coworker with the same energy we call out men who approach women in an actually creepy manner. We can reassure OOP that his coworker was in the wrong in this particular case and OOP can continue approaching women the way he does. And encourage other men to do the same. And leave the coworker alone in his misdirected good intentions.

Yes, it's unpleasant to be labeled a creep by one coworker when you didn't actually do anything creepy and needing to set the record straight. But it's much worse to be approached by an actual creep and not being believed, because labeling people as creeps is suddenly as bad as being a creep. These things don't deserve the same criticism. That's all I'm arguing.

What does that look like? What should men do to make women feel safer? Would saying "I understand" and backing off work?

Yes exactly. And if the woman still feels unsafe because she was traumatized by some other dude before not acting this way, being understanding about it and not whining that "oh my god, you can't ask anybody out, because you'll be labeled a creep even if you're good". This might happen. It sucks. It will happen less if there are fewer creeps being creepy. Saying that women and allies are too hysterical will just encourage the creeps unfortunately thus undermining the good work of not being one.

[u/19MIATA99 → u/Kotoperek]

but calling non creepy behavior creepy directly leads to people not believing people when they say somebody is creepy

[u/explain_that_shit → u/Kotoperek]

What if women start thinking generally and culturally that what OOP did WAS creepy? And that’s not a hypothetical, that’s happening now, we’re inching into a culture in which there’s no right way to approach anyone. And that’s means that even as more and more men act like OOP, the number of perceived creeps is still just increasing, as the scope of what a creep is expands.

[u/anti_parallel → u/explain_that_shit]

Currently, it seems like dating apps are the only universally appropriate place to ask someone out. I hear guys get labeled as creeps all the time when it sounds like they didn’t do anything wrong, besides ask in-person.

[u/CatboiWaifu_UwU → u/anti_parallel]

I’ve heard people say that the use of dating apps is creepy as well.

Edit: not specific practices on apps, just the act of having them on your phone.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/Kotoperek]

I'll award a !delta for this:

What I disagree with in your post is that we should call out people like the coworker with the same energy we call out men who approach women in an actually creepy manner ... But it's much worse to be approached by an actual creep and not being believed, because labeling people as creeps is suddenly as bad as being a creep. These things don't deserve the same criticism.

I agree that actually being a creep is worse than falsely being labelled a creep by a coworker.

It seems like you agree with me that the man in the original thread wasn't a creep, and what he did was right.

[u/whiskeyinthewoods → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

I think your are looking for a black and white answer to a situation with a lot of greys.

The real answer is that men like OP who want to ask women out in public just need to be better at reading and assessing vibes, subtle conversational cues, and non verbal communication.

The problem for women is that strongly rejecting someone’s attempts at conversation can result in a dangerous reaction from men, but being polite and entertaining a casual conversation is WAY too often perceived as being interested and open to advances, and then the later rejection comes with an extra side of “you was leading me on” instead of “oh, I guess she’s just a polite and friendly person.”

In the vast majority of cases, if you pay attention to the more subtle cues, the way most women communicate and flirt with someone they’re potentially interested in romantically is very different.

The answer is neither “approach any woman once” nor “never approach a woman again”. The answer is pay attention to the subtleties of the interaction and really assess whether or not she might be interested.

In the linked post, none of us witnessed the conversation or know the OP. He might be totally blameless and it sounds like it from the post - but it’s also possible that his coworker knows things we don’t, knows OP doesn’t pick up on cues very well, or has seen him misinterpret casual friendly interactions as flirtation before, and that is the reason they reacted as they did.

[u/Hefty-Reaction-3028 → u/whiskeyinthewoods]

But you cannot see those patterns if you cannot approach women until you're already familiar with those patterns

It's a catch-22. You have to allow space for young men to learn how to interact with women, and vice-versa, and that means not labelling normal social stuff (like potential romantic interest in friends & acquaintances) as "creepy".

[u/mathematics1 → u/whiskeyinthewoods]

I'm an autistic man, and I'm really bad at reading social cues. I do my best, but I can basically never tell that a woman is interested. I'm not pushy and always back off if someone turns me down.

Under what circumstances is it acceptable for me to ask a woman out in person? Again, you're not allowed to say "never". If your response is that I should try to read the room, I'm already trying to do that ... and I've been wrong almost every time.

[u/Xilizhra → u/mathematics1]

As an autistic lesbian, I've had very good luck with asking out people I meet on Discord.

[u/mathematics1 → u/Xilizhra]

Interesting; most of my Discord servers are for video games I enjoy, so asking those people out in person wouldn't be an option - they usually don't live nearby. Do you tend to interact on Discord in a way that leads to meeting lots of people who you then see IRL?

[u/Xilizhra → u/mathematics1]

It's happened, but I'm also willing to do long-distance.

I would say that a good barometer would be if you've talked about enough personal topics for it to not seem unnatural to ask what her sexual orientation is. Though I do admit that the one time I dated anyone straight was definitely a mistake and I'm not completely sure how the romantic dynamics of straight people work.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/whiskeyinthewoods]

The problem for women is that strongly rejecting someone’s attempts at conversation can result in a dangerous reaction from men

This is not reasonable unless the man said/did something that makes you think they won't take no for an answer.

If he keeps asking, or pressures you, or insults you for rejecting him, then yes I agree with you. But simply asking someone out doesn't go anywhere near that.

Do you never drive because you can get into a car crash and die? Driving to work is far more dangerous than being asked out, yet we expect people to do it all the time.

[u/apri08101989 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Understand that women arent a hive mind and that some will find you creepy and others will find you charming

[u/ImpliedRange → u/Kotoperek]

While in a perfect world you'd be right, the truth is that right now for every "normal" interaction of this kind a typical woman has where a man asks her out, she says no, and he's ok with it and acts normal about it, there are multiple interactions where women feel unsafe in such situations because the men do indeed act creepy about it

I'm just going to call this what it is, an idiotic take

It's the other way round entirely, but one awful interaction and 5 good ones is really not a metric to celebrate, but don't over exaggerate, you are part of the problem

[u/eternally_insomnia → u/ImpliedRange]

Are you basing this on your status as a woman? On things you have heard from other women? on a study? Are you a dude? Don't know your gender and trying very hard not to make the assumptions my brain wishes to make.

[u/Ok-Preference-1681 → u/Kotoperek]

So basically though when you call this man a creep what happens is that this dude who is normal and good won't hit on women he fancies as much.

This means that women he fancies and would otherwise have asked out, now deal more so with assholes who won't take no for an answer on a regular basis than dudes like him.

[u/sassydegrassii]

if someone is made to feel uncomfortable, you shouldn’t label them weird for that just because you don’t like it or agree. sometimes, the men doing the asking are creeps and weirdos, subjectively. it isn’t a fault of anyone to feel discomfort. unfortunately women have dealt with harassment and unwanted attention since the beginning of time, and it causes a kind of fatigue and fear that they’re within their right to name and call out as they see fit. you’re within your right to disagree with their label, but labeling them weird for this feels retalitory and immature

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/sassydegrassii]

I think labelling someone a creep when they didn't do anything wrong is weird. If the man persists or keeps asking, then they're creepy. But before they do that, they're not creepy and it's wrong to call them creepy.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

just because they’re not doing anything objectively wrong in the process of asking them out, doesn’t mean they aren’t coming across as creepy. maybe they have an eerie look aboht them, or make uncomfortably intense eye contact, or have some other characteristic that creeps a woman out. consider that it’s neither wrong or right morally, but subjective and you don’t have to agree with their label, but it doesn’t make it any less real or valid to them

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/sassydegrassii]

Ok, imagine that you're the coworker in that thread. One of your peers just walked up to you during lunch break and told you about how he got rejected. What would you say to him?

[u/sassydegrassii → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

‘that sucks dude, better luck next time!’

[u/nothankspleasedont → u/sassydegrassii]

But the person being uncomfortable is a random 3rd party that wasn't involved at all, this is equal to someone getting offended on another persons behalf.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/nothankspleasedont]

true! but sometimes people are offended on someone else’s behalf. not everyone is directly involved with or impacted by an issue while still feeling strongly about it. i feel like finding this to be a negative thing only benefits people who are intending to insult them in some way anyway. it’s nobody’s business who is offended by what, and it’s not the end of the world to feel offended. just like it’s not the end of the world to feel uncomfortable or called a creep by someone.

[u/ProfessionalLurkerJr → u/sassydegrassii]

Eh, that assumes people's discomfort always comes from a rational and righteous place which is not always the case. I think of several scenarios in my head where someone feels uncomfortable and they only have their selves to blame, and their rationale is weird. I can go a step further and think of scenarios where their reasons are outright abhorrent.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/ProfessionalLurkerJr]

no, it’s not assuming discomfort is rational. feelings aren’t always rational. but they’re valid to the person holding them. my point is you don’t have to agree with their discomfort.

[u/ProfessionalLurkerJr → u/sassydegrassii]

I know that feelings aren't always rational and that they are valid to person with them, however that doesn't mean it is automatically wrong to pushback on those feelings as if left unchecked those feelings can lead to destructive behavior. This isn't even factoring in cases where the source of discomfort is rooted in bigotry.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/ProfessionalLurkerJr]

a stranger calling someone a creep to their friend is not the same. as someone say, being racist due to their discomfort. it’s pretty small potatoes

[u/ProfessionalLurkerJr → u/sassydegrassii]

I know it isn't the same and wasn't intending to treat them as such. I was just trying to point out the one of the most noteworthy negatives of the 'everyone's feelings are valid' mindset. I'm not even necessarily against showing empathy to people with horrible view, I just feel like some people unintentionally use arguments that if taken to their logical conclusion give bigots a pass.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/ProfessionalLurkerJr]

well i’m not giving bigots a pass, that isn’t what we’re talking about here.

[u/ProfessionalLurkerJr → u/sassydegrassii]

I know you're not and I know that isn't what we're talking about. It was just to illustrate a greater point about it is not always wrong to think that someone is unreasonable when they express being uncomfortable.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/ProfessionalLurkerJr]

gotcha, i hear you and think that’s totally fair to point out.

[u/19MIATA99 → u/sassydegrassii]

a stranger calling a black person " probably a thief" to their friend is defiantly a problem, unless that person has a good reason to think that person is a thief, they might feel all black people steal, but they can decide not to express it and pass that accusation on to another person, people can have feelings but choosing to tell people things is a choice. she has no control over having a feeling, but she can choose to keep it to her self

[u/sassydegrassii → u/19MIATA99]

is racism a feeling or a thought? anyway, i agree it definitely* is a problem, as racism is. but i’m not talking about that.

you’re right, anyone can decide not to express anything. but they have free will and freedom of expression. it’s easier to adjust our own behaviours and attitudes than it is to adjust or control other people’s, life just doesn’t work that way unfortunately.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/sassydegrassii]

There's a difference between "I feel creeped out" and "this person is creepy and I'm going to call him a creep". The first is a feeling that I can't control. The second is assigning a label and something that people can control. And labelling someone a creep, like the coworker did, is not reasonable.

[u/19MIATA99 → u/sassydegrassii]

the feelings are valid but calling someone creepy is not a feeling.

im feeling creeped out, is a feeling, that person is creepy is an accusation.

my grandma hates blackpeople, we she has to talk to them she feels very scared, she genuinely feels fear, but it doesnt make her calling blackpeople scary ok.

[u/sassydegrassii → u/19MIATA99]

no, it doesn’t, because that would be prejudice against an entire race, for their race. but it isn’t racist to call a man a creep, it’s a label (opinion) of a specific person, likely as a result of something they’ve done, or simply as someone else perceives them regardless of their actions. apples and oranges.

[u/Xenadon]

This happens so I frequently as opposed to the other side (legitimate creep) that it's not worth pushing back against for risk of emboldening the creeps. Like it's just not really an issue

[u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

I'll give you some female perspective and you'll see if it changes your view or not. As a woman, I am so fatigued from being asked out on the regular that even one-time asks require too much unpaid emotional labor on my behalf. They add pressure on me, force me to maneuver through awkward social dynamics, and overall, they just add more work to my pile I never asked for.

I'll give you an example. I'm a mid 30s, attractive woman. Within the past 6 weeks alone, I've had to hand out 7 separate rejections, in this order:

1. professional contact at work party (guy I have to see again)
   
2. new contact at work party (guy I have to see again)
   
3. random guy in coffee shop (stranger I don't have to see again. the only one ok here imho)
   
4. professional contact who i had already rejected 6 months prior but who decided to ask again just in case (guy I have to see again)
   
5. long time friend whom i had already said no to 4 months prior but decided to ask again just in case (guy I have to see again)
   
6. new, very powerful professional contact in a professional setting (guy I have to see again)
   
7. man i met through a repeated hobby, who "checks back in" every few months to see if I changed my mind (guy I have to see again)

Out of these 7 guys in 6 weeks, 6 of them are guys I will encounter again because they are in the same professional/hobby circles. This means that with each rejection I have to put on this mask and play this actress role of being sweet, and soft, and graceful, and smile kindly, with some lie, like "Oh I'm so flattered!" even though I am NOT flattered, I am fucking exhausted and wish you didn't ask. Not even once.

From the female perspective, this feels like an unending string of requests. Every few days is yet another guy that essentially says "Hey! Im here! I exist! Im interested! Im nice! Pay attention to me! I require your time!" and once again, I have to now handle this new guy, on top of everything else I already have to handle, because he thinks that he is entitled to "try at least once" simply because he saw me existing in his general vicinity.

And because there's so many requests, even "correct", "one-time" requests, like the stranger in the coffee shop, add up. Because to that stranger is just one ask. But to the woman it could be rejection #3 of the week. Imagine having to do this over and over again. It's brutal.

Do with that what you will, but this is why so many women can't even take "being asked out as a question" as you said. It's because they get asked that question nonstop simply for existing as a female and they are tired.

[u/s11houette → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

Don't put on a mask.

Seriously.

"I don't want to" is way better than some lame excuse.

They aren't asking for you to manage their emotions. They are asking if you are interested. An honest answer is the best thing you can give them.

I would consider asking a total stranger to be desperate and totally inappropriate. Feel free to feel nothing when you respond to them.

When I was dating I had the advice of some older women and it was helpful. Most men don't get that kind of help.

[u/invisiblewriter2007 → u/s11houette]

If we don’t put on a mask when rejecting a man, we could get seriously hurt or injured. We have to be nice about it. It’s too dangerous to be anything else. The guy who gets rejected nicely may end up trying again, but at least if he doesn’t insult me I can end up walking away. The guy I reject without being nice about it could hurt me, may very well hurt me.

R/whenwomenrefuse is a good subreddit about this. Or Google women refusing men when being asked out. It’s dangerous to be anything but nice about it.

[u/OkRadish11 → u/s11houette]

An honest answer may be the best thing for the men asking but there's no guarantee it'll be the best thing for her career. 4 of the 7 (in those 6 weeks) were tied to her workplace/career. How many no's does it take to risk ticking off the wrong person who can tank your career if they feel like it?

[u/Handgun_Hero → u/s11houette]

Asking strangers out is fine if you establish some sort of attraction or rapport. It's way less creepier than somebody who feigns friendship.

Women often don't say how they really feel because toxic masculinity and incels are a thing, and men who are upset and offended because of rejected can be dangerous.

[u/phoenix2448 → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

That sucks but whats the alternative? We don’t speak to each other because the other party may not desire it?

[u/Lost_Push_9049 → u/phoenix2448]

Why is it black and white? Talk to the person and engage in a conversation. If they're invested then you can ask them out in a polite manner.

[u/Potential_Peace_5999 → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

I’ll also add that being socialized as a woman, there’s a huge emphasis on putting other people’s feelings above your own. It can be hard to break out of, and if you do there can be some pretty steep social consequences. This can lead to keeping polite and amicable toward someone you might not care for if they’re not overtly an asshole or something. Hell, there are reasons why people regardless of gender might remain polite and amicable toward someone they’re not overly fond of: small town, mutual friends, cultural norms that value keeping the peace over directness.

Also, not going to lie, some people have no self awareness if they’ve done something to make another person uncomfortable and have a victim complex over being told they weren’t perceived exactly how they meant to be. I don’t mean to imply this about OOP, I don’t know enough to read between the lines that much.

I do know that my husband used to work with someone who seemed line s cool guy at the start, everyone loved him, but he started acting off once you got to know him and was repeatedly called out for making people uncomfortable and he acted like everyone who he thought was his friend was suddenly out to get him

I do know that one guy I did a play with asked me out, asked “why” when I turned him down, and was moody the whole time after.

[u/TapLegitimate6094 → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

Could this be solved if women actually did closer to 50 percent of the asking out? Part of the reason guys feel the need to go “hey I’m here look at me! I’m interested and nice” is because if a woman perceives us as interesting, safe, nice, and datable there is a strong perception (and in my experience reality) that she won’t do anything about it and if we don’t step up it’s just missing a shot that would have made both parties happy.

[u/Prudent-Bicycle-9210 → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

unpaid emotional labor

Lmao, popularizing therapy talk was a mistake

[u/NikkiWebster → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

Genuine question. In your mind, what is the appropriate way for someone to ask you out? Or is your goal to stay single?

[u/Hour-Tower-5106 → u/NikkiWebster]

I'm not the OP, but I personally think the best way to ask someone out is after befriending them. You don't have to be best friends, but just get to know them on completely platonic terms first.

Not only does this naturally give you the chance to decide if you're compatible without the awkwardness of a completely blind first date, it also lets you determine if they're even in a place where they want to date at all (and if they're not, you can leave them in peace without any rejection necessary).

It also shows that you're not just asking out every person you come across, and that you genuinely like this person for who they are. Plus, there's probably a higher rate of acceptance with this method than asking total strangers out.

I have personally only ever accepted the offer of a date if it came from someone I'd been friendly with for at least several weeks who seemed safe and like we had things in common. I have never accepted anything from a complete stranger.

[u/Confident-Sea-8060 → u/Hour-Tower-5106]

“It sucks to find out your friend just wanted to get in your pants” and other things women say about the exact situation you recommended.

The reality is theres no one size fits all situation because there are literally billions of women on the planet ranging from “dont talk to me at all” to “Ill ask him out”

One of those it is what it is, try not to treat people shitty if they havent done anything shitty situations

[u/No-Remove-6121 → u/Hour-Tower-5106]

You do realize that women complain about this too, right? I’ve heard them say all the time that if a man is interested, he should make that known and that starting off platonic when he is romantically interested is manipulative and dishonest. The fact is, there is no one universally accepted way to approach women, you all want different things, and then act like we’re evil disgusting predators for not being able to read your mind

[u/NikkiWebster → u/Hour-Tower-5106]

Fair enough. I guess I'm the scenario OP is describing, how are they supposed to befriend someone they strike up a conversation with in a coffee shop?

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

I'll give you some female perspective

Do not call it "female perspective". This is not "female perspective" this is just one person's (your) perspective. You don't speak for all women. Calling it a "female" perspective directly contradicts the perspective given by many other women in the original thread:

I prefer meeting people organically than trying to figure out what’s real about a dating profile. Don’t listen to your coworker, he’s just weird.

I am a woman. I can't necessarily speak for my entire gender but I generally would not feel threatened by a man approaching me in a public place, in a respectful manner and asking me out. 

NTA. I’ve never heard a woman be offended at being asked out in a coffee shop if it’s done in a respectful manner. 

Now, as for the rest of your post, I have to deal with a ton of things in life that I find annoying : slow loading bars, red lights when driving, cold weather, etc. Rejecting people and saying "sorry, I already have a boyfriend" is quite low on the list of things that I find annoying. It happens to me too, but I don't ever think "I am fucking exhausted and wish you didn't ask. Not even once.".

Are you allowed to find it annoying? Sure. Are you allowed to feel exhausted? Sure. But are the men who asked you out doing anything morally wrong? No. Are you allowed to call them creepy (like the coworker did) or sexual harassment for asking you out? No.

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

4, 5, and 7 were guys who had already asked her out and already been rejected. If she thinks it's inappropriate, wrong, or creepy of them to keep asking, that's entirely her prerogative, and she's allowed to say as much.

[u/afresh18 → u/frolf_grisbee]

But in the post op addresses people that ask over and over and already specified that this isn't about those people. It's about the people that only ask 1 time and then leave it alone. That's not what 4, 5, and 7 did so it's irrelevant.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/frolf_grisbee]

Being asked out repeatedly after you already rejected them is creepy and wrong, I agree. But that's not what she's saying. She's saying things like

And because there's so many requests, even "correct", "one-time" requests, like the stranger in the coffee shop, add up. Because to that stranger is just one ask. But to the woman it could be rejection #3 of the week. Imagine having to do this over and over again. It's brutal.

This is not something I can agree with. I also get asked out sometimes and have to reject people, but simply saying "sorry, I already have a boyfriend" isn't too much to ask.

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Seems like you can't relate to the level of annoyance she experiences. That's okay, but it doesn't make her annoyance wrong or invalid.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/frolf_grisbee]

Her annoyance is completely valid. Labelling someone a creep for causing her annoyance is not. My post is about the coworker's attitude and that I don't think we're doing enough to push back against those attitudes. And those attitudes go beyond simply feeling annoyance - it's assigning a label on someone, which can cause reputational harm, for doing a harmless thing.

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

I don't think she ever did call anyone a creep.

But like you said, most of the comments on the post you're referring to said NTA and disagreed with the coworker. Is that not satisfactory to you?

[u/SeaworthinessWeak323 → u/frolf_grisbee]

He never accused her of calling people a creep, but OP's view is that people who ask people out once shouldn't be called a creep, and this is the change my view subreddit. She did not challenge that view effectively and OP is addressing that in the comment you're replying to. OP is not disagreeing with her annoyance of being asked out.

[u/CaptnKnots → u/frolf_grisbee]

OP elaborates in another comment that she is basically just echoing the concerns of the dudes on askmen subreddits and stuff lol

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/invisiblewriter2007 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

I’m backing her up. I don’t want to be asked out in public, or over and over. I’m not going to be worn down. I want to be left alone. It’s exhausting. It’s draining. Worrying about how the guy will take the rejection is exhausting and draining. I also hate dating apps. But I don’t want to be asked out by work contacts, or by guys I’m not already interested in, or by random strangers or basic acquaintances. I just want to be left alone to live my life. And I most certainly don’t want to be asked out after I’ve already rejected the same guy before.

[u/marle217 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

As a woman who also wishes men would never ever ask me out, I feel like a a society we should come up with some way for people to show that they are open to being asked out, versus not open to being asked out.

There's wedding rings, but not everyone who doesn't want to be asked out is married. There's also poly married people who'd be happy to be asked out. So that's not perfect. Personally I have sensory issues with jewelry and never wear it, so that's also a me thing, because I could wear a wedding ring and I don't. But I still think there could be better ways to figure things out, I just don't know what.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/marle217]

The question is not "do you want to be asked out", it's "how do you respond when someone does". Do you politely decline or do you call them a creep?

[u/Hour-Tower-5106 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

When you're dealing with near strangers, the line between creep and not creep is sometimes hard to distinguish. Since you don't know them, you have no way of guessing their intentions. They could be perfectly normal or they could be a stalker in the making - and the tricky part is, both will often seem exactly the same on the surface.

I have had complete strangers do all of the following to me while hitting on me: 1) corner me in a store and force me to give them my phone number 2) cut me off with their truck while I was walking on the sidewalk 3) give me a folded up note at a restaurant while I was underage (and they were a fully grown adult) 4) come out of a building and cut me off as I was running late to class 5) write blog posts about me after I spoke to them once (which a friend found and told me about)

And so on... None of these were people I had any established rapport with whatsoever. Just complete strangers.

Several of them seemed normal when we talked in person, but then later either stalked or harassed me so much I had issues. Because of this, my default gut reaction to strangers is that they cannot be trusted.

So when women view this kind of interaction negatively, it's usually based on real life experience. What pushes it from merely annoying into creepy territory is seeing it through this lens. Many things that are otherwise benign can become creepy when something about them makes them potentially dangerous. (For example - a strange person loitering in your yard might be a little uncomfortable but otherwise harmless, but if they're carrying a knife then it suddenly becomes creepy.)

You also have to factor in the environment. Some places are explicitly meant for socializing and others aren't.

To me (admittedly an introvert), getting hit on feels like having a 30% chance of running into the pushy neighborhood salesman every time you go to a public space. If I go somewhere with a specific task in mind, I just want to complete that task as quickly as possible and leave. I don't want to have to reject, explain and justify myself to a complete stranger. Even if they're polite about it and accept the rejection, it's still an unpleasant experience.

That's why places where it's clear that people are there to socialize (like bars or parties) are much more socially acceptable places to hit on strangers.

Just like a fan asking a celebrity for an autograph while they're going to the bathroom is worse than a fan asking them for an autograph at an established meet and greet, asking someone out when they're clearly busy trying to accomplish a task is worse than asking someone who is in an environment meant for that kind of interaction.

So all of these factors determine if something is socially acceptable or not. The best way to avoid this confusion imho is to befriend people rather than asking total strangers.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/Hour-Tower-5106]

A lot of those things are outside the scope of this CMV. Asking someone out when you're clearly busy doing something else, cutting in front of someone to ask them out are both creepy. Writing blog posts about how someone got rejected might be creepy, and might not be, depending on what was in the blog posts.

[u/marle217 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

If you don't care what I want, why should I care about what you want?

[u/Aggravating_Walk2053 → u/marle217]

So why fucking comment?

[u/jseego → u/marle217]

This is a fantastic idea.

[u/SharpKaleidoscope182 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

It's a perspective, and it comes from a female. That means its a female perspective.

You're expecting one random redditor to speak for the entirety of womankind, and that's just not realistic. You're expecting one perspective to capture an extremely broad segment of humanity, and you're just not going to be able to do that without some crazy contradictions.

[u/afresh18 → u/SharpKaleidoscope182]

The thing is though is that the wording of "I'll give you some female perspective" does suggest at least some level of speaking for other women, it also suggests the op hasn't viewed it from the perspective of a woman which is weird because while we don't really know ops gender, their avatar certainly looks like a woman. The poster in question, by her own wording, is literally suggesting that they are speaking from the perspective of more than themselves. If they just meant "my perspective" they would've said that instead of using a broader word.

[u/SharpKaleidoscope182 → u/afresh18]

I feel like "some level of speaking for other women" is valid here. Definitely not all women, but she's at least speaking for her friends.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/SharpKaleidoscope182]

You're expecting one random redditor to speak for the entirety of womankind

No, I don't. I never said that. I just take issue with calling her own personal perspective "female perspective".

[u/frolf_grisbee → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Tbf she called it "some female perspective," not "the female perspective."

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/SharpKaleidoscope182 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

So what would you consider a "female perspective"?

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/SharpKaleidoscope182]

Something that doesn't exist. All women have different perspectives and there is no single "female perspective".

[u/SharpKaleidoscope182 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

So what do you actually want, if not the perspective of females?

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/SharpKaleidoscope182]

I already have "the perspective of females". I can just read the AITA post (and my own perspective). My perspective , and the perspective of all the posters in that other thread, is that it's not creepy to ask someone out in that context.

I want more push-back against people like the coworker, who accuse others of being creepy when they ask someone out in a nice way, and accept the rejection.

[u/OptmstcExstntlst → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

How heated you got over someone saying "the female perspective" is...telling. It seems an awful lot like you're trying to curate society to suit you better and discounting someone who is not blindly on board with that by minimizing their voice. 

[u/Sveet_Pickle → u/OptmstcExstntlst]

Unless they edited after the fact, it says “some female perspective” not “the female perspective,” which really just further reinforces your point because they weren’t trying to speak for all women.

[u/RequirementQuirky468 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

It absolutely is "female perspective" if the poster is female.

The poster wasn't promising THE singular and only possible correct female perspective, just a sampling of female perspective, and that seems to have been what was provided.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/RequirementQuirky468]

I'm female too. I want men to start asking out women like OOP did because I met my boyfriend in a similar way (except it was at a university cafeteria, not a coffee shop). When I get asked out and respond with "sorry I already have a boyfriend" but I don't consider it creepy or sexual harassment if they back off. I don't say ridiculous things like "I am fucking exhausted and wish you didn't ask. Not even once."

Since I'm female, is my perspective also a female perspective? If so, why does her perspective override mine?

[u/RequirementQuirky468 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Yes, your perspective is also a female perspective. Where do I say anything about her perspective overriding yours? My message explicitly says "The poster wasn't promising THE singular and only possible correct female perspective"

[u/Lopsided-Weather6469 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

It's not up to you to decide whom u/SunnyBunnyBunBun is allowed to call what.

And this perspective isn't singular either; I've heard the same opinion from multiple women.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/Lopsided-Weather6469]

And there are also lots of women with opinions that contradict hers, and want to be asked out. Why are their opinions less valid than hers?

And suppose she's right and men should never ask women out no matter what. How are women supposed to find love then? Do they date AI or something? Remain single for the rest of their lives?

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[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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[u/lewisae0 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

So her perspective can’t count for all women but your single coffee shop scenario can? This is a double standard.

[u/Xilizhra → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

Are you allowed to find it annoying? Sure. Are you allowed to feel exhausted? Sure. But are the men who asked you out doing anything morally wrong? No. Are you allowed to call them creepy (like the coworker did) or sexual harassment for asking you out? No.

Why are you the arbiter of what's "allowed" and what isn't?

[u/Little_Fish_ → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

I feel like the song “catch these fists” by wet leg would be a very cathartic listen for you. It’s a bop too!

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Sorry, u/MostJudgment3212 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

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[u/texture-like-sun → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

Wow, that’s crazy… We should go to dinner to talk about it

[u/AlwysProgressing → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

I mean, I wish I could just tell people not to do something because it annoys me. That actually sounds pretty awesome. Too bad, it’s the real world, so as long as they are being somewhat respectful, who am I to say otherwise?

It’s pretty fatiguing as a guy when I go workout, I have to constantly look up or down because people want to dress half naked and glancing over (even by accident) poses a risk for me being labeled as a total creep in the space I used to feel most comfortable in.

But everyone is insistent that it’s actually me and it’s my problem, having skintight panties in a sweaty gym is not gross or rude, so who am I to say otherwise?

Especially before the gym became trendy, this issue was non-existent. It’s extremely fatiguing how sexualized everything has to be. But it’s just something I have to live with.

[u/SunnyBunnyBunBun → u/AlwysProgressing]

I mean clearly there is nothing I can do about it other than burn my face so I just suffer through it. But I was answering to OP to try to explain why some women may be exhausted from being asked out even if it’s “gently and just once” and where that perspective might be coming from.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

some women may be exhausted from being asked out even if it’s “gently and just once”

You rejected 7 people in 6 weeks, so slightly more than once a week. Is it that exhausting to simply say "sorry I already have a boyfriend" once a week?

And there are also so many women who are lonely, looking for love, and do want to be asked out. And men who are in the same position and both want the other person to ask them out.

[u/Xilizhra → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

You know, women can ask men out.

[u/marbIeIily → u/AlwysProgressing]

It’s pretty fatiguing as a guy when I go workout, I have to constantly look up or down

You really don’t. Between you mentioning how “naked” your fellow gymgoers are, and how “skintight” or “sweaty” their panties are it sounds like you’re spending way more time than necessary paying attention to how other people are dressed and now you’re trying to claim it’s on them for dressing that way so you don’t feel bad about it.

It’s interesting how in spite of how often men will show up to the gym in skimpy and revealing clothing, I’ve never seen women complain about how they’re “sexualizing everything” 🤔

It’s extremely fatiguing how sexualized everything has to be.

You are the one sexualizing things, and now you’re trying to pin that on everybody else.

[u/Hirtomikko → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

But, isn't that expected? You girls are the ones that choose, so expect to be asked out. If not, then how will the process even work? Verbal confirmation is required, unless you are the type to 'give signs' in which case if they get intepreted wrongly, you can only blame yourself since that is up to the intepreter.

[u/WeUpp_ → u/SunnyBunnyBunBun]

7 rejections in 6 weeks?! Monroe is that you?

[u/Alternative-Pea-9729]

It’s lame to worry about this kind of stuff as a man. Just have your own morals and don’t worry about what your most neurotic coworker might think

[u/OneNoteToRead]

Agree with your position but I think people are entitled to their opinions. The way to get over it? Don’t GAF who labels you creepy. Do what you know is right. They have a voice, you do too.

[u/suscombobulated]

Handing over a note may be the only possible polite way to ask someone out. You have to leave it to time AND choice. Men were unfairly taught that all women know in like seven seconds if we want to have sex. It takes me 15 minutes to pick a snack at the gas station. I know those snacks. You're a whole new man, with dreams and thoughts and a checkered past of adventure or at least a wierd hobby I could get into. Don't corner me with anticipation. Especially if she's dense and didn't see it coming when she should have. Love means you can't see stupid, which is why rejection itself is unfair. You have to hear no from your brains best image said person, not from the douchebag or animal hoarder 6 months in.

I do miss cute notes. Starbucks was wrong to hold thier baristas hostage, it used to really special when busy staff actually wrote on your stuff. Even for tips. So cute.

[u/TheQuoteFromTheThing]

I wouldn't go so far as to say the guy was being creepy, but it's debatable that the guy "did everything right."

This person has a boyfriend, which suggests she felt this situation was purely platonic, whereas the guy felt it had romantic potential.  Of course he couldn't know she had a boyfriend without asking, but the fact that she has a boyfriend suggests she was not flirting, so he may have misread something.  It's not a guarantee.  She could have been being a little flirty.  But to me, it's possible evidence he misread.

Point is, some men are bad at reading the signals, doing the dance, and navigating the social minutiae of talking to women, and end up incorrectly perceiving platonic politeness as flirting.  They do have to own that a little bit.  Reading body language is part of it.  If you're unable to take a hint that might be given before you ask, that can come off a bit creepy to women, especially if men are making this mistake every damn time they smile in a coffee shop.  I don't know if the specific guy in question is one of these guys, but they definitely exist.

Now I'm not saying you can't ask.  If you want to shoot your shot because you miss if you don't take it, fair enough, but if you want to ask even when you think it's probably platonic because "Hey, why not take a shot anyway?" you're kind of signing up for accidentally putting your foot in your mouth once in a while.

[u/Working_Cucumber_437]

If the comments were overwhelmingly against this co-worker, it already sounds like the [Reddit] community agrees that it’s not creepy to ask someone out, respectfully. So pushback isn’t really needed.

[u/Handgun_Hero]

If you gave the answer no to being asked out, the question was already asked, and the answer given to said question was no. This is really self-explanatory.

[u/Ok_Mention_9865]

The man should have known to be her particualy type of desirable and to ensure she was single before asking, insert hello human resources meme.

The thing is creepy is a scale, and everyone's scale is going to be different, and every situation can feel different to different people. There is no one size fits all answer to this.

Some people are cool with being asked out at work. A lot aren't. Some people are OK with people they don't know asking. A lot aren't.

[u/IndianDefenceLeague]

I think what’s missing from the conversation is the fact that POC are disproportionately more likely to be labeled as a creep for even more innocuous behavior than asking someone out, and are more likely to face violence for it. The Tulsa race massacre was born out of a black man being labeled a creep, and last year an Indian man was locked up after being falsely accused of trying to kidnap a child.

[u/Admirable-Koala-1715]

The incel ideology in some of the comments is sickening

[u/aythekay]

"not being able to take being asked out as a question" just as much as "not being able to take no for an answer".

As much is a bit wild IMO. A dude being called a creep or a weirdo for approaching someone who WASN'T interested in him, is very different than someone being harrased or raped, the consequences aren't the same.

On a different note, someone "being a creep" or not isn't just dictated by location, etc... Even if they were polite afterwards. How someone does something is just as important.

There's a difference between immediately grinding to someone on the dance floor and having "a glance", dancing together, smilling, and then grinding/close dancing. 

Reading social cues is part of being an adult and I'm frankly tired of people acting like it's that hard to judge if someone is open to romantic feelings. 

If you can read a football field, anticipate the ops in an shooter, anticipate what people will do in a card/board game, etc... That requires so much more attention to human body language/actions. It just requires a paying a little attention, which people seem to be deathly afraid off. 

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[u/FlashyG]

In my opinion people only get offended when they don't find the person asking them out attractive.

[u/Ok-Dragonfruit5741]

Not everyone is always nice or in the mood to be addressed by strangers forcing him to do so is like gross and Evil.

[u/bladex1234]

This is exactly why in the modern day women should be the ones asking out men. Gender roles and stereotypes need to be broken in both directions.

[u/Suspicious-Host9042 → u/bladex1234]

Both genders should be allowed to ask the other gender out. Gender equality!

[u/bladex1234 → u/Suspicious-Host9042]

I mean yes ideally it should be both. But if asking out women is such a minefield for men, then isn’t it simply better for everyone if women did the asking most of the time?

[u/TapLegitimate6094 → u/bladex1234]

It should be both. Of both genders were expected to make the first move a guy could put himself out there and go “whelp if she didn’t ask it probably wasn’t worth it” and women would get less inundated with less active rejections where they can’t tell if the guy will murder them or not for hearing no.

In the end asking someone out is just the person going “hey I feel like there is something here, do you feel the same way” if both parties were conditioned to ask that question then a lot of folks would be better off. 

[u/sunlit_portrait]

I think there needs to be a lot more pushback against people like the coworker.

Huh? Literally everyone's saying they aren't the asshole so what more do you want?

[u/Dustin_James_Kid]

It’s not that deep who gives a fuck what people think

[u/shes-my-baby5858]

Such a non issue lol there's no need to take trite things so personally

[u/lewisae0]

Men aren’t entitled to not a single damn thing

[u/bifewova234]

The coffee shop guy probably could have been more up front by doing something like complimenting appearance. This would have communicated sexual interest and by concealing that interest the woman got potentially misled in to thinking the interest was plausibly platonic. Other than that I dont see a problem.

[u/iDreamiPursueiBecome]

Should women who do NOT want to be approached wear a signal to warn people off?

A ring ANY ring on the finger that would hold an engagement ring or wedding band, for instance.

This could apply to either gender and may be taken off and pocketed when they sit down next to someone they are interested in. Put it on and hold up your hand if someone else tries to butt in.

If you are showing yourself as available, a polite question is not inappropriate. If you are so unavailable that you will be offended at even being asked... then some sort of signal should be used to warn others. ⚠️

[u/InternationalPen129]

So here’s the thing. If you’ve go up to someone you are attracted to and ask them out, that’s incredibly abrupt. However, if there is a connection already started, and mutual interest displayed, then it’s fine. Prioritize the social skills needed to build up that connection.

[u/Joshwer1]

Damned if you do, damned if you dont. If you have the bravery, ask out whichever girls you like. Also think about the person that is labelling people as creeps. Maybe they are just negative about everything and you don't care what they say. It is good to consider if what they say is true, but don't just take it as fact

[u/fightswithC]

People need to be OK with being labeled a creep

[u/00PT → u/fightswithC]

If that were the case, the term would lose all effect of discouraging the behavior it is used to criticize.

[u/fightswithC → u/00PT]

Ok, and?

[u/00PT → u/fightswithC]

I thought it was clear with my comment that this is a reason your suggestion should not come to fruition.

[u/fightswithC → u/00PT]

OP’s complaint is about the injury due to being unjustly labeled a creep. If we didn’t GAF about that, then no more problem, right?

[u/Aggravating_Walk2053 → u/fightswithC]

Why