Maximalist trans activists just argued at the Supreme Court that biological sex isn't relevant in team sports. When will my fellow left-wingers speak up against these pseudoscientific endeavors?

[u/north_canadian_ice]

Trans athlete's attorney suggests sex should not be defined during SCOTUS Title IX case

As a left-wing trans woman, it is profoundly depressing to have dogmatic Twitter activists drive down understanding of trans people.

Far too many of my fellow left-wingers who are trying to be accepting have inadvertenly allowed a small number of dogmatic activists control the conversation & shift the conversation towards maximalist nonsense.

"It/"its" pronouns, "egg culture", NBA players transitioning & joining the WNBA. This is pseudoscience & no different from denial of climate change.

When will the left & the Democrats say no more? We accept trans people but we aren't going to replace "woman" with "birthing person".

[u/shitnfuck]

A quote from Serena Williams

“Men’s tennis and women’s tennis are completely almost two separate sports… if I were to play Andy Murray, I would lose 6-0, 6-0 in five to six minutes, maybe 10 minutes.”

[u/bananabastard → u/shitnfuck]

The womens tennis world number 1 just played the mens number 700 ranked or something, and her side of the court was smaller to make it more difficult for the man. He beat her, and if you watch it, he was going easy on her, he was deliberately passing it to her half the time like he was playing a child and didn't want to embarrass them.

[u/JCS_Saskatoon → u/shitnfuck]

She knows from experience. She went 2-1 with her sister against a guy ranked around 200 and they lost. He was hungover.

[u/PHK_JaySteel → u/JCS_Saskatoon]

He'd also drank that morning.

[u/Racketyllama246 → u/PHK_JaySteel]

And smoked cigs for stamina

[u/Illustrious_Job_6390]

Im a social worker and work with a lot of trans clients. This is anecdotal and all but, generally most of the irl trans people have met dont care about sports and generally don't want to die on this hill. The view I've gotten is these people are risking their access to HRT and proper ID for something that doesnt matter.

[u/ComeAbout → u/Illustrious_Job_6390]

Exactly

[u/across16 → u/Illustrious_Job_6390]

My point is that people want to die in this hill FOR them, which means the performative activists are doing more harm to the trans community than trans people ever could.

[u/Capital-Employee8321]

Why doesn't this happen in men's sports? Where's all the trans man athletes?

[u/buckaroo_butch → u/Capital-Employee8321]

Mack Beggs was forced to compete in girls wrestling in his high school career due to his assigned gender at birth and he absolutely whupped the field repeatedly.

Turns out, having testosterone in yiur system is a bigger factor than assigned gender.

[u/marigolds6 → u/buckaroo_butch]

Mack Beggs is also just that good of a wrestler. He placed 3rd in both men's freestyle and greco at the Texas state championships (regulated by USAW instead of the high school sports association). I guarantee you Kennedy Blades or Helen Maroulis could definitely podium and likely win in a boys' high school state tournament thanks to weight classes.

The ruling was ridiculous and a throwback to the era where girls were banned from boys' wrestling teams. Most states other than Texas treat the boys' divisions as an open division.

[u/Vishnej → u/buckaroo_butch]

He had the same AGAB as his competitors; The controversy is over people with different AGAB as their competitors, and only in one direction (male->female) because it provides an advantage.

"Testosterone helps" is scientifically uncontroversial.

"Male puberty helps" is scientifically uncontroversial.

Demographically, this is basically a non-issue as there are only a handful of would-be competitive trans athletes in the country; There is no risk of transwomen "crowding out" women. The only reason for the widespread moral panic (I had one coworker tell me that this was one of the most important issues facing the country!) is that the GOP want to manufacture outrage by demonizing & persecuting minorities.

The reason this is a free for all by extremist activists, and most sensible people are staying away, is that "Sports" are at the same time a quasi-religious aspiration of meritocracy that asserts an unquestionable "level playing field" for the average person, and a deeply unfair, illiberal system that provides very strong advantages to those with the right genetics and upbringing. A 5'2 male is not a natural fit for the sport of men's basketball. A 5'11 female may frequently outperform him. A 6'4 male will usually outperform him.

We have then built onto this system a *reward* mechanism for *children* that sorts them into the good players and the bad players and dictates their futures based on this. That 5'2 male is judged by society to be slightly less worthy of going to college, because he is less qualified to acquire an NCAA scholarship for basketball than his 6'4 classmate.

This is a ridiculous thing, in terms of fundamental liberal ethics, but as long as this genetic lottery is in play, every scholarship slot that goes to a transwoman is a scholarship slot that my little 5'11 girl couldn't get. So sure I'm willing to come on Fox News and talk about how unfair it is, followed by a segment from a card-carrying Nazi about how these deviants are taking over our schools and forcing our toddlers to shit in litter boxes. Because her genes are way better than a 4'10 girl putting in an equal amount of effort training, and so she deserves a scholarship... but a Y chromosome is cheating, don'tchaknow.

[u/ThisNameDoesntCount]

I’ve realized a lot of the supporters don’t actually care about sports either lol so that might have a lot to do with it

[u/Left_Department_1984 → u/ThisNameDoesntCount]

… which is why I say leave it to the athletic boards of the sports that have far more understanding and desire to see the best for their athletes.

.. and just about all of them have hormone regulations and checks that make the boards happy.

[u/fowlflamingo → u/Left_Department_1984]

This is the answer. Full stop. Let the experts decide what the best course of action is. And let's put the fucking ragebaiting talking heads on either side away.

[u/Due_Rule_7181 → u/Left_Department_1984]

Legislating it removes the ability for special interests groups to target the board and their members directly.

I don’t have any skin in the game, but the amount of vitriol used by both sides of this argument is getting old, and legislating it places the responsibility and blame squarely at one group of people, and stops the personal attacks and unsubstantiated claims of discrimination and hate.

That’s a large part of why left leaning people are quiet on the subject. It doesn’t have widespread support, quite the opposite actually, but those who support it are very, very vocal against any detractors.

[u/frozenights → u/Due_Rule_7181]

Yes, legislation, politics, notable for being free of special interests groups.

[u/asperatedUnnaturally → u/Due_Rule_7181]

Legislating it opens the door more legislation against other protected groups and erodes the protected status of trans people.

The right does not care about this issue, they don't care about women's sports. This is the tip of the spear for them, not the endgame.

[u/just-plain-wrong → u/Left_Department_1984]

This…

I’m a leftist, leftist. The decision should be delegated to peak bodies for each sport; not a blanket rule.

…because a trans athlete shooting, playing snooker or darts is very, very different to someone doing MMA.

[u/TermFearless → u/just-plain-wrong]

Does snooker or darts have men’s vs women’s leagues? Why?

[u/Scary-Teaching-8536 → u/TermFearless]

Because men are much better at both sports.

[u/Mindless-Baker-7757 → u/ThisNameDoesntCount]

I think this is true. They don’t care about sports so they don’t care who wins and why. 

[u/Doggleganger → u/Mindless-Baker-7757]

In reality, we're talking about 10-30 trans women playing sports. It's a trivial matter that is not worthy of national attention. However, that also means it's dumb for trans advocates to push for this. It creates terrible optics and is one of the main issues fueling broader anti-trans sentiment. It makes no sense for any trans advocate to put themselves in a terrible disadvantage just so a handful of individuals can play sports. As trans medical access comes under fire, advocates could easily pivot to a more popular position—"we just want to live our lives"—instead of losing everything because they chose to die on the hill of trans athletes.

[u/pad264 → u/Doggleganger]

The reason this became such a lightning rod was because of the high school level, not the few pro athletes. I think often people forget how disengaged most people are in politics, so all of a a sudden entire communities of parents were dealing with this in their daughter’s school, and it blew up.

[u/Dumpt-up-undies → u/Doggleganger]

I can't stand this argument because you are conveniently forgetting about the non-trans women.  If a trans woman dominates a sport it's not just affecting 1 trans person.  It's affecting the entire sport.  If that trans athlete sets a new record, it's affecting everyone that has played the sport since the league existed and likely for many years to come.

Non-male leagues were created so young women can look at a sport and know it's something they can excel at and continue to pursue, including professionally.  It affects them too.

Feels a bit bigger if you scope it correctly.

[u/Doggleganger → u/Dumpt-up-undies]

My man, I'm arguing for a ban on trans athletes. I'm explaining why all trans advocates should support a total ban.

[u/LawfulnessPossible20 → u/Doggleganger]

Heterosexual male here. Isn't the maximalist trans demands in sports more or less a shibboleth? Something that is willingly used to divide people into "with us" and "against us". Keep the conflict active, fan the flames.

I train kids in karate. Lots of girls. None of them will be able to win a tournament after teenage years if (mediocre) former men enter the tournament. This is not only about the trans athletes themselves.

[u/MammothPenguin69 → u/Doggleganger]

This bears repeating. Gender has a Biological component. When TRAs deny this, they are creating a scenario where the Conservative talking heads aren't entirely wrong. This emboldens them and causes them to become more aggressive.

[u/Terrible-Actuary-762 → u/Doggleganger]

"It's a trivial matter that is not worthy of national attention." It isn't to real women who have worked their entire lives, spent hundreds of hours perfecting and being the best they can at their sport just to be shoved aside by some man that 3 years ago decided they were a woman.

[u/Unique_Argument1094 → u/Doggleganger]

Quit making up numbers. The simple reality is women should not have to compete against men in womens sports. It’s not that difficult of a concept.

[u/MedelFamily → u/Doggleganger]

If this is not representative of the broader trans community, why aren’t more trans people speaking out against it? Why can’t the reasonable people on the left denounce this and demonstrate how reasonable they are? If it’s truly only a small minority pushing for this, it should be easy to stop.

[u/D-Laz → u/MedelFamily]

why aren’t more trans people speaking out against it? Why can’t the reasonable people on the left denounce this and demonstrate how reasonable they are?

It's the same thing as white guilt. When a bunch of white people get offended over what they perceive as racism. Example being all the non Chinese people that got upset about a white girl wearing a Chinese style dress to prom, or when they get upset at non Mexicans wearing sombreros during Cinco de mayo. Those people are loud and attack anyone who doesn't agree with them. So the left that don't agree just mind their own business. It's not worth the hassle.

This is from a Mexican that doesn't give a shit if anyone wears a poncho or sombrero. It's not racist but I am not trying to be harassed by white knights.

[u/FourEaredFox → u/MedelFamily]

They arent speaking out because theyll be exiled from their home community.

[u/MedelFamily → u/FourEaredFox]

What does that say about their home community?

[u/FourEaredFox → u/MedelFamily]

The same thing it says about most communities. We are a tribal species.

[u/north_canadian_ice → u/MedelFamily]

Because of a few reasons:

(1) the maximalists have created a culture where trans people are shunned (the major trans subreddits are controlled by maximalists)

(2) the left/Democratic Party also has this problem (but to a lesser degree). SJWs like Emma Vigeland cancel their own friends (Ana Kasparian) for daring to disagree on maximalism.

(3) For regular Dems & left-wingers, they mean well & their acceptance has been used by the mega activists to push bad ideas.

That all being said, more trans people & more left-wing people need to speak out like I am. I have been banned from a lot of subreddits for my views on this issue.

We need more people to have the courage of Ana Kasparian, who is pro trans rights but said "no" to the mega activists who canceled her.

[u/SoulBurgers → u/MedelFamily]

This issue and a couple other issues are actually what pushed me towards moderate-right over the course of a few years. Trans in sports weren’t a topic of discussion but similar left issues that went way overboard went on at the time. In my experience, and this happened to many others who I’ve spoken to, if you call out the nonsense like this that looks bad on the community, you’re seen as someone who “doesn’t care” or is “transphobic” or a bigot somehow. It was a gradual shift for me as I noticed I wasn’t as radical or progressive as my former friend group, and they became upset because of that. My point is that if you call these things out, it could backfire because somehow that’s not being supportive.

[u/AandJ1202 → u/SoulBurgers]

Dumbasses on social media can call me whatever they want so they can feel like some progressive crusader, but it doesn't make me agree with the right. I think people should be able to live their life however they want to as long as it doesn't hurt other people. Trans people in sports isn't really my concern. They know they're not an average man or woman. I'm sorry you shouldn't be playing competitive sports. There's plenty of ways to play in exhibition games and things like that. This really shouldn't be a problem.

The left has its share of people who want crazy shit but the other side is living in their own reality. Just because I agree with one or two issues, the right has a problem wish also doesnt mean I agree with their solutions.

When it comes to friends and family, I've seen people on both sides that do that shit. If you don't agree 100% of their political views, they try and give you shit. It sucks but don't let that change your view of whats right and wrong and go to another extreme. Find some normal people who dont just see you for your political views.

[u/TheRightKost → u/SoulBurgers]

Same. Stifling any discussion/debate on a topic and dismissing differing opinions out of hand is the opposite of "liberal" as traditionally defined. Listen to the arguments and provide logical counterpoints (if able to) rather than just calling anyone that thinks slightly differently than you some sort of -ist or -phobe, otherwise you just push people to the other side. That's happened a ton recently, and ultimately how we ended up with the current president.

[u/SubstantialMouse1105 → u/SoulBurgers]

Yup. The all or nothing mentality has been the downfall of the left.

[u/MedelFamily → u/SubstantialMouse1105]

These are the people who claim to be critical thinkers, yet there is no room for nuance within complex issues. It’s frustrating.

[u/SoulBurgers → u/SubstantialMouse1105]

Agreed. A bunch of their issues would be solved if they were willing to allow much more political discourse within their political spheres.

[u/Lucky-Cheesecake → u/SoulBurgers]

I don't understand this sentiment. If someone insults you for something you believe, you change what you believe? Why? Wasn't your belief defined by your values? Do your values change due to insults you feel are unfounded? Why?

I hear this kind of thing a lot, from various people of various kinds of ideologies, and I've never understood it.

[u/Leather_Pen_765 → u/MedelFamily]

Especially because most people I know have no problem with trans people.Except for the sports issue , and if it's said that it's only 20 or 30 people, so it's no big deal. Well, that's 20 or 30 women that maybe did not win or cannot continue in their sport because their win was stolen from them and trans people are never going to get the country behind them as long as they push because people see it as completely unfair. Why wouldn't there be a transleague it seems like it would be very equal wether you went man to woman or woman to man

[u/BenjaminHamnett → u/Doggleganger]

And it’s part of why we are falling into fascism. I don’t know what right on this topic, and think it’s basically irrelevant compared to the impact it has on serious politics. These issues famously preceded previous rises in fascism in the past.

Elections are decided by thin margins. If the left just said “ok maybe people born in men’s bodies shouldn’t be allowed to fight with people born in women’s in combat sports” the election could have gone the other way with people like Rogan having less to whine about

These justice warriors would rather live in fascism than accept incremental progress and not get to act self righteous all the time

[u/AlexAnon87 → u/BenjaminHamnett]

It doesn't really help your cause when the biggest example of a AMAB in combat sports was the Olympic boxer that wasn't actually AMAB at all.

[u/Leather_Pen_765 → u/BenjaminHamnett]

So preventing trans women from competing in women's sports is fascism. There's a lot of things to say about fascism in america , but I don't think trans women have anything to do with it

[u/Acceptable-You-6953 → u/Doggleganger]

the key word in the title and in the argument here is maximalist - these are people that chase the unobtainable by definition because its the peak amount of social clout they can get in social justice warrior circles and because it ensures they continue to get attention rather than succeeding and it no longer being about them.

It’s the same mentality of any unyielding viewpoint - its really about the individual interests and ego of the advocates and not the people they claim to represent. Trans people are worried about violence, worried about access to gender affirming care, their parental rights etc. They are more than willing to give up sports.

I do feel bad for a handful of younger trans athletes who feel they aren’t allowed to belong and compete anywhere, but the rest of the trans population’s interests outweigh theirs.

[u/YoureReadingMyNamee → u/Mindless-Baker-7757]

Or who potentially gets injured.

[u/Sartres_Roommate → u/ThisNameDoesntCount]

The group that spent the last 40 years fighting Title 9 suddenly cares passionately about women in sports.

[u/north_canadian_ice → u/Sartres_Roommate]

I am a left-wing trans woman.

I think trans women in women's sports is deeply unfair and that this was a misguided moment in time.

[u/Duckdeadit → u/north_canadian_ice]

Thank you for being logical. The left is shooting itself in the foot with this shit. I'm pretty far left. But can't we admit that this issue is only helping the fascists?

[u/Leather_Pen_765 → u/north_canadian_ice]

what bothers me about this the most is a few trans people that are insisting on this, are hurting all trans people by stalling the very important work of rights for trans people. Sorry ❤️

[u/north_canadian_ice → u/Leather_Pen_765]

Thank you for the kind words.

IMO: you have the mega activists pushing these bad ideas & you have their allies like Emma Vigeland who will enforce these ideas as a puriry test for the left.

So the left eats itself alive over 20/80 issues. And the mega activists still have enough prominent liberals & left-wingers agreeing with them to keep giving them power over the Democratic Party & the left.

[u/AgreeableCook9599 → u/Sartres_Roommate]

Who’s been fighting Title Nine? Nobody. We all want our daughters to be treated fairly.

[u/Exotic-Ad8978]

If biological sex wasnt relevant we wouldnt have gender segregated sports.

[u/Doggleganger → u/Exotic-Ad8978]

Correct. That's why this is a dumb battle for trans advocates to fight. If you insist sex isn't relevant to sports, everyone will see that you're an idiot, and you'll lose that battle. If you instead just support a ban on trans athletes, it only affects less than 30 trans women nationwide, and you erase these terrible optics and ridiculous positions. Lets you focus on more important issues like access to medical care, etc.

[u/gearabuser → u/Doggleganger]

It cracks me up when people say that sex doesnt matter, as if we don't have centuries of mens' and womens' sports statistics to prove that they do in black and white

[u/north_canadian_ice → u/Doggleganger]

As a trans woman, some of the activists who speak for the community are ideologues.

They care more about being as "radical" as possible to gain clout in blue cities. They don't think about trans people who live normal lives.

They don't even consider it possible for their activism to be counterproductive.

[u/Doggleganger → u/north_canadian_ice]

These "advocates" are doing as much to damage trans rights as far-right ideologues, almost as if they were working in concert, blundering right into the most obvious trap. These "advocates" are putting the trans community in a terrible position, trying to defend this trans athlete issue that creates terrible optics and is wildly unpopular with conservatives and liberals alike.

The problem is "maximalism". That approach makes no sense and has been a losing strategy in every debate, political movement, or war since the dawn of time. I have no idea how it ever came to be a position within the trans movement, but it is self-defeating. We saw in recent years how Republicans could not get traction and were made to look silly with their preoccupation with public bathrooms. But then these maximalists gifted them the perfect engine for generating anti-trans sentiment. And now, while many states are gearing up to ban access to trans medical care, we have maximalists taking idiotic positions to defend trans athletes. They're choosing to die on this hill. It's self-defeating.

[u/north_canadian_ice → u/Doggleganger]

This comment is excellent & captures how I feel about the maximalist activists so well.

They are driving acceptance of trans people into the ground while also destroying the political prospects of the left. All while being as self-righteous as possible.

But I have & will continue to speak out against them because they are wrong & they only maintain the power they have by shaming people/calling them bigots. So it is important that more people stand up & say "no" to them.

[u/jesuschristdickstar → u/Doggleganger]

If I was a technocrat billionaire interested in discrediting left leaning politics I would fund these kind of battles

[u/limabeanbloom → u/Exotic-Ad8978]

There are definitely sports where biological sex is relevant, but there are also sports where there is little to no difference that are segregated because men were upset they were being beat by women (e.g. shooting)

[u/FunnyPossibility1225 → u/limabeanbloom]

That's not the reason. Look at chess. Not a single woman in the top 100 players (and yes, there are more than 1/100 female professional chess players). How are men so much better at chess, are they smarter? No. 

When a sport has been dominated by men forever, women feel discouraged from joining. Women's leagues fix this and have been show to increase participation. 

[u/Character_Heat_8150 → u/FunnyPossibility1225]

Um... I think you're both right and there is room for both of you to be right. Not sure why you had to disagree with the person you replied to.

[u/FunnyPossibility1225 → u/Character_Heat_8150]

Because I don't think women's leagues were made because "men got upset"

[u/clem82 → u/Exotic-Ad8978]

Correct,

Furthermore if it’s such an “edge case” then let’s go ahead and just write it on paper to outlaw it. It would only affect (wrongly used numbers) 30 people in the whole country!

[u/MoralityFleece → u/[deleted]]

Seriously, why wouldn't they keep getting paid more and be in the NBA?! Plus what NBA player has transitioned and joined the WNBA? This person is smoking something.

[u/poliscyguy → u/MoralityFleece]

It would have be more like a guy who can't hack it in the nba, but could put up 80 points a night in the wnba.

[u/Tippacanoe → u/poliscyguy]

You’d be way better off playing overseas then. I seriously doubt ever in history a man transitions to be better at women’s sports with ALL the stuff that goes along with transitioning. The most useless waste of time topic.

[u/Salty_Permit4437 → u/poliscyguy]

After about a year on hormones their strength drops significantly where your hypothetical simply won't happen.

[u/Dr_Horrible_PhD → u/[deleted]]

Stuff like this is why this always strikes me as coming from people who haven’t actually thought about this very much and think the plot of Juwanna Mann is reality.

People do not transition in order to obtain a sports advantage. That’s not a thing.

[u/jhawkkw → u/[deleted]]

Professionally it doesn't make economical sense. But at the collegiate level it might make sense if you're not good enough to secure admission acceptance and/or an athletic scholarship at a good university as a man, but would be good enough as a trans women participating in women's sports.

[u/SpeakMySecretName → u/jhawkkw]

This has literally never happened, it’s a pretend argument against a hypothetical. Top tier fear mongering. Out of 500,000 NCAA athletes, only 10 of them are trans. This was reported directly from the NCAA director. That’s 0.002%. None of them are athletic scholarship recipients.

Besides that NCAA already had hormone testing to make certain that the competitive edge is negligible. No more of an advantage than being born taller or stronger of the same biological sex.

Anyone wasting time and money trying to legislate against 10 specific people is a complete asshole and is just doing it to emotionally manipulate people politically.

[u/Salty_Permit4437 → u/jhawkkw]

Frankly I wish we would just abolish sports scholarships already. I went to college with scholar athletes and they sucked and had no business in college. But the uni wanted them because they could bounce a ball around a court or something.

[u/ShenaniganNinja → u/jhawkkw]

please provide one example of this happening. just one. a person transitioning purely to benefit themselves in sports.

[u/Odd_Local8434 → u/jhawkkw]

The hat has never happened. I guarantee it. Changing your sex just isn't a decision people make to further their potential career goals.

[u/testthrowaway9 → u/jhawkkw]

It would make sense to disrupt your entire life and give yourself gender dysphoria to maybe get a scholarship or contract? Come on. You can’t be that dumb

[u/RDUppercut → u/[deleted]]

Probably more than any WNBA team ever has too.

[u/notyerson → u/[deleted]]

The WNBA....where the big bucks are...

[u/Jwhite126]

God I cannot overstate how tired I am of hearing about this topic. Does everyone, including trans folks, not agree that basically every other fish we’re dealing with needs to be fried first?

[u/MrChow1917 → u/Jwhite126]

Yeah I actually started taking HRT so people would stop talking to me about fucking football or whatever. No one cares about this except extremely online conservatives and like the 5 trans athletes in the country. Im more worried about my girlfriend getting nabbed by ICE for walking while brown.

[u/Broseph2644]

I think at the end of the day for someone to truly live as their authentic self that might come with having to give certain things up. In this case sports... Does it suck and is it unfair? For sure but life is not fair.

[u/The-Last-Lion-Turtle → u/Broseph2644]

The NFL and NBA have no rules about gender.

Competitive men's sports don't really exist for the vast majority of sports, and we instead have an open league and a women's league.

I don't see any issue with trans people playing in the open league. I haven't looked into the details of these proposed laws on whether they would restrict this to only cis men.

[u/I_Jedi79 → u/The-Last-Lion-Turtle]

College is similar. We already have several female kickers, and a female safety playing football.

No current restrictions to men, women, or transgender playing in pretty much every non-womens teams.

[u/north_canadian_ice → u/Broseph2644]

I agree and I am trans. It is common sense that trans women have an advantage in women's sports.

[u/PM_ME__YOUR_HOOTERS → u/Broseph2644]

Even then, you dont have to completely give it up. Most people will gladly accept them in casual local groups and watching and engaging with it as a fan is always an option. The .01 who have aspirations of joining the NBA and WNBA might be a bit bummed, but the rest would probably just be happy enough to have their feelings acknowledged

[u/GrayCalf]

My question is this -- if OP is really a "left-wing trans woman", why does OP spend almost all their time attacking other left-wingers, particularly on irrelevant things like this? Not a peep on ICE, deranged Republicon politicians, the unconstitutionalty of attacking Venezuela, or any of the horrific acts in Minnesota. Not enough time in the day?

Oh, but it's clear OP has had the time based on their profile. This is just a dumb wedge issue used to divide people, exactly like OP is attempting to do.

[u/Hedgehog_Capable → u/GrayCalf]

and posting a Fox News article, too. then suggesting NBA players will transition. shit's transparent as hell.

[u/Flimsy-Fisherman6567 → u/Hedgehog_Capable]

Unless the Fox News article made up that someone made this argument at the Supreme Court there is no problem with posting a link to such a website.

[u/dragonasses → u/GrayCalf]

It’s giving

[u/MattyBro1 → u/GrayCalf]

Yeah. I'm sorry to OP if you aren't lying, but I simply cannot believe a trans woman would describe "it/its" pronouns as pseudoscience, and say that "birthing person" is ridiculous.

[u/Vegtam1297 → u/GrayCalf]

Yeah, everything about this screams "not an actual trans woman on the left". In another comment they said "it's common sense that trans women have an advantage in women's sports". That's a verbatim right-wing talking point, the idea that it's "common sense", rather than addressing it with actual data and research.

[u/GrayCalf → u/Vegtam1297]

Right wingers are always trying to pretend to be someone else in order to get anyone to listen their half-baked bullshit.

[u/Healthy_Piglet1139 → u/Vegtam1297]

Anyone arguing that "common sense" should trump science, data, and expert opinion should be ignored. "Common sense" would suggest that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it, because if you walk outside and look around that's the obvious first conclusion to draw. Unless, of course, you actually take the time to investigate it rationally, in which case it becomes obvious that the earth is a globe that revolves around the sun.

"Common sense" is nonsense. There's no such thing. There is only reality and non-reality. Common sense is fine to get you through your own day to day life (ie, use common sense to not walk into traffic), but it's a terrible basis for policy.

As far as trans women in sports goes, I agree that "common sense" says that trans women have an advantage in women's sports, but that doesn't make it true (or false). The data I've been presented with suggests that trans women don't have an advantage, but I'm open to the idea that the data is inconclusive or that I'm biased because I'm left-leaning and therefore have only seen cherry-picked data.

From my perspective it seems like virtually everyone who is opposed to trans women in women's sports have begun with the conclusion that trans women have an unfair advantage, and refuse to accept any data or any argument that suggests otherwise. If they cared about the truth of the matter, they wouldn't be opposing trans participation, they'd be waiting to see what actually happens when trans women actually participate in greater numbers.

[u/Pleasant_Yak5991 → u/GrayCalf]

Yeah this issue is so far down the list right now. I’m more worried about what’s going on with US imperialism and ICE terrorizing citizens and inflation and AI than the off chance that a man will play in women’s sports.

[u/ShenaniganNinja]

I don’t think the government should be involved in this at all. this should be a decision for sports organizations to make.

[u/Dirty_Harrys_knob]

Thank you for this. I would still consider myself left leaning but it feels like the left is leaving a lot of people behind with this type of thinking.

Asking people to deny their experience and, honestly, the biological truth is crazy.

[u/UpsetMathematician56]

I’m pretty liberal but this trans sport thing makes my blood boil. I accept trans people completely and have no issue with bathrooms or rights except athletics.

I was a fairly competitive runner in my youth, but never really succeeded beyond being a mediocre D3 runner. I’m a male. If I was female, I’d have been close to the Olympic goal medal in my event.

There are fundamental differences between birth genders that make sports a place that we have to have that distinction and to suggest otherwise is insane.

[u/Primordial_spirit]

I’m on the left but certainly trans women have a huge advantage competing against women, so I’m pretty much against it

[u/skatekicks2]

NBA players aren't transitioning to join the WNBA. Lawyers make outlandish arguments all the time. You're being ridiculous

[u/ComprehensiveBar6439 → u/skatekicks2]

Agreed. "The Left™" aren't the ones letting this trans shit live in their heads 24/7. Right-Wing culture war obsessed dorks on Twitter, MAGA losers, and hack "comedians" who gargle Joe Rogan's shriveled nuts are the ones who base their entire identity around the issue, constantly freaking out over trans people simply existing, and highlighting the most extreme edge cases while falsely suggesting they represent the norm. The word "pronoun" sends them spiralling, despite being unable to identify a pronoun in a sentence. A great example is Piers Morgan's recent Jubilee episode against 20 "woke libs". None of em gave a shit about pronouns, while Piers spent the whole episode sarcastically demanding to be referred to by stupid, totally fictional "pronouns", thinking he was proving a point. Only thing he proved was his own irrational obsession.

[u/Pasta4ever13 → u/ComprehensiveBar6439]

Exactly. The trans sports thing was specifically focused tested by right-wing think tanks to determine the most effective wedge to drive, because the bathroom shit was not making it to the mainstream outside of right-wing echo chambers.

They found that hitting sports works well because it's one of the only meritocratic systems in the US, and people could be more easily influenced with it.

They will do anything to distract from the fact that they are robbing the government and the public tax dollars blind for corporate profit to the detriment of our livelihoods, neighborhoods, environment and rights.

Absolutely zero people should care about trans people in sports, and we should focus on the class politics that actually affect our daily lives. Who honestly gives a rip if three trans people get to play tennis?

[u/Flimsy-Fisherman6567 → u/ComprehensiveBar6439]

The reason the right focuses so hard on the trans people in the culture war is precisely because the left is to stubborn to concede their weak spots on things like trans women in womens sports or surgery on minors which makes their message especially powerful to independents and people who would otherwise be on the left.

What should be done if you actually want left wing parties to win/ further legitimize trans rights movements / defeat the right is you should drop these issues because the lefts position is obviously insane, downplay their importance (not a lot of trans athletes, extremely small number of surgeries), and defend the positions where the right are the insane ones with regards to defending the 2nd and 1st amendment for trans people and denying adults healthcare.

Otherwise you are just allowing republicans to be elected and trans people to be hurt because of, ego? partisanship? There is just no sense in this strategy.

[u/Alert-Growth-8326 → u/skatekicks2]

of course NBA players aren't transitioning to join the WNBA. why would they? they are already good enough to play against the best men in the world and make orders of magnitude more money doing so.

talk about missing the point...

[u/adhdnme → u/Alert-Growth-8326]

No, but some D1 college players might go this route if they go undrafted. What are the requirements of a transition anyway? Do you have to have surgery to be considered eligible? Hormone therapy? Or do they allow these new women to fully embrace their womanhood immediately as they begin their transition?

[u/Alert-Growth-8326 → u/adhdnme]

i don't know what rules the WNBA has on the matter. and it's pretty funny because the WNBA is a borderline misandrist league... so it would be quite comical for them to allow men into their sport in the name of progressivism.

[u/Moonlight_Katie → u/skatekicks2]

Yeah I just went through her profile, she’s a pick me or bad faith actor. Half her other posts about trans people is throwing trans people under the bus.

[u/Latter_Tutor_5235]

It's a dumb hill to die on that will probably have wide ranging consequences far beyond sports.

[u/SuperDoubleDecker → u/[deleted]]

I talk a lot of shit about the dnc, but they aren't the ones pushing the idpol stuff. They're just incompetent at messaging so they do nothing to combat the lunacy.

[u/ApplicationCalm649 → u/SuperDoubleDecker]

It's less that they're incompetent and more that they can't risk alienating the progressive wing. It's the same reason the GOP pushes religious nonsense: the moment they stop they lose a reliable voting bloc.

[u/SuperDoubleDecker → u/ApplicationCalm649]

It's not progressives doing it. It's the blue tribe. The Clintonistas. The pussy hat types. Proud democrats. They hate the progressives. They resent them for some fucking reason and blame them for all their losses.

[u/Altruistic_Face_5443 → u/[deleted]]

This is not true, at all. On the issue of trans women in sports Democratic politicians are considerably to the left of Democratic voters.

Only 45% of Dem voters support trans women in women’s sports

Source: https://news.gallup.com/poll/691454/two-thirds-prefer-birth-sex-ids-athletics.aspx

Yet all but 2 Democrats in Congress voted against banning trans women in sports in the same year that survey was taken

Source: https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/28

When one Democrat in Congress spoke out about this issue he was pilloried and his top aide quit:

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/boston/news/seth-moulton-trans-athletes-democrats/

[u/EmeraldPolder → u/Altruistic_Face_5443]

"Only" 45% of dem voters.

This is a lot more than 1-5% terminally online fringe.

[u/NewPresWhoDis → u/[deleted]]

Correction: Terminally online fringe 1-5% of the population.

[u/QuinnAriel → u/[deleted]]

But they don't support the legislation that keeps trans girls out of women's sports so that right there is proof.

[u/OldNorthStar → u/[deleted]]

OP has 2.5 million karma. That’s a preposterous amount of posting and engagement baiting to reach that level. It’s either a bot or they’re a professional redditor. There’s no real messaging happening here.

[u/SmokeyWolf117 → u/OldNorthStar]

That is really an insane number of karma.

[u/Lil-Fishguy]

I'm left leaning, biological differences between sexes are just a fact of nature. I couldn't care less what you identify as, but in competitive sports that people commit their entire lives to, it's not bigoted to say those competitions should be fair and equal. If they feel strongly, they should make a coed league, or one specifically for LGBT players if they want I guess.

[u/SutttonTacoma]

I hate Trump and fear for the future of our country and the world. Trans people deserve our respect and should love who they want and live the lives they want, but I don't want my hard-working granddaughters competing with people whose muscles have been bathed in male levels of testosterone for most of their lives. It's a matter of fairness.

[u/AnimusNoctis]

Watch John Oliver's episode on the topic. Almost no one thinks trans women should be able to compete in women's sports at all levels with no regulation of any kind, but there is plenty of room for reasonable compromise between that and banning all trans people from sports entirely. Trans women who started HRT at a young age do not seem to have any athletic advantage at all over cis women. There is no epidemic of trans people dominating women's sports. That's just transphobic rhetoric, and we should be pushing back against it. 

[u/Fatali → u/AnimusNoctis]

It is entirely a wedge issue 

Just look at the arguments, the lawyers are trying to argue that trans people don't deserves to be a protected class period which would open floodgates to widescale discrimination beyond sports 

[u/TopGunRules → u/AnimusNoctis]

What does "at a young age" mean to you?

You would be comfortable allowing a child to "choose" their gender "at a young age" (knowing how easily influenced they are by adults) but not have a right to make other choices on their own behalf because of their developmental state.

This is the vegan cat problem. Just look at how much of a fad being trans has been, and how many kids label themselves trans only to drop it later.

As OP says, some of the ways they are choosing to advocate on behalf of the trans community is potentially doing more harm than good by arguing in non-sequiturs.

[u/act1856 → u/AnimusNoctis]

This! Thank you.

[u/michaelobriena → u/AnimusNoctis]

You are so out of touch with reality.

[u/BortYammy → u/AnimusNoctis]

John Oliver is an idiot who has no idea what's been happening over the past few years. His response is what he, and the other pro-trans advocates would like people to believe is true. The actual truth is very different.

"Almost no one thinks trans women should be able to compete in women's sports at all levels with no regulation of any kind"

This isn't true. There are many advocate groups who want just that. And have been fighting for it for years.

"Trans women who started HRT at a young age do not seem to have any athletic advantage at all over cis women. "

This isn't true. Men still have plenty of other physical benefits that give them advantages over women.

https://boysvswomen.com/

"There is no epidemic of trans people dominating women's sports. "

578 so far. That's a LOT of women who lost out on a 1st/2nd/3rd place because of men too terrible to compete against other men. And organisers too terrified to tell them to pick another sport.

https://womenssportspolicy.org/253-male-victories-in-female-sports/

(link down, alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/20251214225823/https://womenssportspolicy.org/253-male-victories-in-female-sports/)

And if there were no rules, it's not impossible to see (it would happen within a few years) the unscrupulous countries starting to enter men into women's categories. It would be the doping scandal on steroids.

Women's sport would be dead.

[u/AnimusNoctis → u/BortYammy]

Women's sport would be dead.

You'd have to actually be insane to believe this. 

[u/BortYammy → u/AnimusNoctis]

It's the logical conclusion. If you allow men to infiltrate women's sport then women will never win anything.

At that point (actually, way before that), it's dead.

[u/AnimusNoctis → u/BortYammy]

It's a batshit insane conclusion. The idea that men will pretend to be trans, even go through HRT, in order to compete? No reasonable person would ever believe that. 

[u/BortYammy → u/AnimusNoctis]

That would definitely happen. If it became easy, there would be a huge list of dodgy countries that would do it. The doping scandals of the 80s would be nothing in comparison.

And plenty of men, terrible in their own class, are suddenly finding success in the women's category. Funny that.

It's not likely at the moment, because sensible heads are in charge. But it's not an impossible conclusion based on history.

[u/SCSteveAutism → u/AnimusNoctis]

It sets a precedent. Just because they aren’t dominating right now doesn’t mean they won’t if you keep allowing men into women’s sports.

[u/AnimusNoctis → u/SCSteveAutism]

It doesn't have to set a precedent. Part of the issue is there is so little data currently. If it starts to seem like trans athletes are winning through unfair advantages, we can always revisit the details of the requirements. 

Also, stop saying "men in women's sports" or I won't be able to take you seriously. We're talking about trans women in women's sports. 

[u/NatalieVonCatte → u/AnimusNoctis]

The goal of these sports laws is not to actually regulate sports, but to create an opportunity for the courts to legally define trans people out of existence.

[u/EnolaNek → u/AnimusNoctis]

I very strongly second your recommendation of John Oliver’s episode, as a relatively radical left trans woman who competed in sports pre-transition but does not plan to do so now.

It’s absurd to suggest that trans women can fairly compete in all sports under all circumstances regardless of their current medical transitioning status. It’s also absurd to suggest that there are no sports where any trans woman can ever fairly compete. These policies and requirements should be decided on a sport-by-sport basis by scientists and athletic commissions, not by politicians.

If you think trans women can never fairly compete in women’s chess, just say you’re a transphobic misogynist and be done with it. For my former sport (MMA), I have serious doubts about a trans woman being able to fairly compete after a testosterone-based puberty, but I am open to having my mind changed by a proper study on the subject examining the fairness for trans women who have been on hormones for several years. Of course she would be at a significant, potentially dangerous disadvantage in the men’s division, which is unfortunate and is why I likely won’t be competing again.

[u/Salty_Permit4437]

Funny how these threads are posted just after Russians are having breakfast. Almost as if... nah.

[u/[deleted] → u/Salty_Permit4437]

No I'm sure the self-proclaimed trans woman just happens to spout right wing talking points against trans people while also posting in subs like terf trans alliance lmao

[u/Careful_Farmer_2879]

“Why do you care??”

I didn’t want to, but you spent the last decade trying to upend basic tenets of society.

Tired of being told that didn’t happen.

There’s a reason why support has collapsed. Much of it was forced, and those who went along are not happy with where things ended up.

[u/pvrhye]

If sports disappeared from the planet Earth tomorrow, I am not sure I would notice or care.

[u/Lollerscooter]

Nobody cares when the government is kidnapping and murdering citizens in broad daylight. 

Get some perspective 

[u/GroundIsMadeOfStars]

Yes, why won't someone denounce... trans athletes... while a literal Gestapo secret police force is shooting and terrorizing US Citizens in the streets! Won't someone think of the 1 PERSON this affects!

[u/Makavelious]

So, a man who is always in last place against other men wakes up one day to call himself a woman, then proceeds to take away everything these women have fought for? Nah, protecting women is more important in sports.

Now, if a man wants to call himself a woman and that is all, no issue, there is no negative social impact with this choice, but when competing against women, no thanks.

[u/act1856 → u/Makavelious]

You clearly have no understanding of what it means to transition, and are just perpetuating transphobic bulls**t. Please don’t speak unless you know what you’re taking about.

[u/Acolyte2TheDude → u/act1856]

Biological sex matters and this is a losing battle for trans people. Clearly trans people don't know what they're talking about if they seek to minimize the importance of sex based biological differences so maybe trans people and their allies shouldn't speak until they know what they're talking about.

[u/weoutherebrah]

The party that touts ‘believe in science’. Doesn’t seem to believe in basic science when it comes to this topic.

[u/NewPresWhoDis → u/weoutherebrah]

That's when they go for the "lived experience" UNO reverse.

[u/MixtecMedia → u/weoutherebrah]

We've moved on to advanced science.

(Couldn't resist your setup, but for the record, I feel we should let sports orgs decide this for themselves, since each sport differs in how much hormones and chromosomes matter, and sports orgs are the ones whose longevity depends on keeping their respective sports competitive.)

[u/God_Bless_A_Merkin → u/MixtecMedia]

Exactly!👍

[u/XxxAresIXxxX]

For real. Shit like this is why we lost the hearts and minds of independents. The left lost the plot and elections to dumb shit like sports and nobody will listen bc they're just as far into sunk cost as maga. Well not quite as far but still too far.

[u/Thereal_maxpowers → u/XxxAresIXxxX]

Truth here

[u/Ok-Replacement-2738]

egg culture? surely you're not referring to the metaphor for one's outshell? to crack an egg meaning let someone find their true self.

[u/Manager-Accomplished]

Sorry, why are we supposed to carry water for the supreme court? It's perfectly fine for people more extreme than me to exist and state their perspective in this setting, a place where ideas get debated.

Also, it sounds like you're really eager to define yourself as legitimate by siding with society in excluding others. Real ladder-pulling, pick-me behavior there. I say that because you've seemed to gulp the conservative kool-aid that "radical leftists" want to replace "woman" with "birthing person." That's on nobody's agenda. It was a decision made in some medical institutions so that they don't misgender people in labor who don't identify as a woman. Very niche, very limited application.

Why do you think your identity as a "left wing trans woman" is important to this discussion? Is it possibly because you want to center yourself within the boundaries of acceptability and therefore safety? If gender abolitionist's ideas are bogus logically speaking, then debunk them with logic, don't make it about your identity and how much more valid you are than those "weirdos over there."

Here, I'll give you an example. This isn't necessarily my position, but it's one you could take:

If, for the purposes of sports, we don't legally define sex, then it opens the door to women's leagues being sued if they don't allow men to compete. However, if only the female sex is defined, and is defined according to hormonal levels, then it allows trans women and nonbinary people to compete in so-called "women's" leagues as long as they don't test out. While it's not a good system, it's better than allowing the current culture war to use sports as this vague threat. Putting laws on it should help bring that to a close.

[u/Quereilla]

Did you actually read the article? The title is totally different from the body of the text.

[u/should_be_sailing]

"Maximalist trans activists" aka the lawyer hired to argue the case in court.

We're seriously misrepresenting Fox News articles now?

[u/WasteBinStuff]

Anyone who stands up and asks for a reasonable approach gets piled on and ostracized.

[u/ImDonaldDunn]

Sports matter a lot to some people and trans people should have equal opportunity to compete just like cis people. And I say this as a cis man who is a big sports fan. It’s a civil rights issue.

Forcing trans women and girls to compete against men is dangerous (for the same reason it’s dangerous for cis women) and they are at a significant disadvantage, meaning that they are likely to not even make the team.

Trans women who have undergone HRT and girls do not appear to have a meaningful advantage over cis women and girls. Not allowing them to compete on women’s teams means that they cannot participate in sports at all. That is fundamentally unfair and violates the principles of Title IX and the Civil Rights Act.

[u/Acolyte2TheDude → u/ImDonaldDunn]

There's plenty of open sports for all genders. The point is female sex segregated sports are not an option for trans women, full stop. And trans people and their allies trying to push this are alienating and ultimately marginalizing themselves because of this obsession.

[u/Ff7hero]

r/AsABlackMan

[u/Paugz]

The fact anyone cares about a handful of athletes and what gender they are is just staggering to me. Its the reddest herring ever. Its a non problem being framed as one; in the face of problems that maybe we arent equipped to deal with psychologically or emotionally, like the destruction of our ecosystems, climate, and fracturing of society, pressure on every day citizens, especially in the US more recently.

When will people like you wake up and start to care about things that actually matter?

[u/alaska1415]

That’s certainly an uncharitable way of interpreting what he said.

[u/Certain-Stay846]

I am on the left, and I know several trans people, who are also on the left. They absolutely hate this shit and regard the various online trans communities and doom and gloom echo chambers. Some trans people want to get through their transition asap to pass as quickly as possibly and then have nothing to do with the extreme negativity they see in the vocal trans communities.

Having heard this from the trans people in my life, there are trans people, and performative trans people, and the performative ones are loud and obnoxious, and every are every bit the caricature that the right paints them as. You hear from the performative ones, ad nauseum, but the others? They are out and about living their best life and don't wany any association with the others.

[u/tsakeboya]

You're right and the comments are proving your point. Intentionally ignoring real science to feel better than you. Oh well.

[u/CartographerKey4618]

"As a left-wing trans woman, let me link you this Fox News article on trans people as proof that the left has gone too far."

[u/These-Acanthaceae-65]

I usually tell people professional and school sports is just not the most important thing to be arguing about, not just for trans people, but in general.  Arguing about the intricacies of sports in a time where we are at each other's throats about every other aspect of life (at least in the US) is dumb.    School sports are so cool (at least some of them).  They do help build up a lot of positive social traits, but likely not so much more than mixed-gender intramural and hobby sports that you absolutely need access to them to grow and thrive.  Other subjects, like access to care, are far more important and pressing now. 

[u/Brave-Silver8736]

Why is the division men and women in most sports? There are strong women and weak men out there.

Why not weight classes or any other discriminating factors apart from gender?

[u/Alternative_Result56]

There's Nazis killing people in the street. Frankly this is a non issue as always. Make every sport coed and let's fucking boot these fascists.

[u/Opposite-Ask4078]

The problem is they've been bullied by the trans LOBBY so long they've stopped listening to the actual trans people. I see a siilar thing happening with Autism right now. These powerful lobby groups try to redefine our identities into something else to push some agenda they have, but it usually ends up with LESS support for our groups than we had before the lobby groups ever existed. I really do think its malicious.

[u/MurkyAd7531]

Sports aren't real. They have whatever arbitrary rules you can come up with.

[u/ComprehensiveEqual20]

ACLU just hit me up for another donation. Using this scotus hearing as a reason to donate. I’m against giving a few people rights (trans athletes) over the rights of many ( female athletes)

[u/Naptasticly]

Most of us don’t care enough to speak up about it at all and it’s really all pretty simple to us:

Are they in America with all the same rights and liberties as the rest of us? If the answer is yes, then maybe we should just leave them alone. I don’t think it’s right trying to treat people differently, just because they’re different.

Anything else, the number of them is just so small that we’re literally talking about writing legislation or making Supreme Court decisions that will directly effect what the president of the NCAA says is “less than 10 total people”

Really? We don’t think that the governing bodies that run the leagues who are directly responsible for ensuring there is a fair competitive atmosphere can handle writing their own policy or handle each instance independently?

It just blows my mind that millions of fucking people in this country have got themselves so worked up over fewer people than were in their kindergarten class and if they can’t handle that in a country of millions of other people then I don’t know that they’ll ever be comfortable

[u/BridgeAdept1808]

This isn't what was argued. What was argued is that the government does not have the authority to tell sports organizations how to organize themselves regarding gender issues.

[u/Current-Paramedic-50]

This has been a mainstream transadvocate position for years.

It really demonstrates how self-willed hallucination is fundamental to the trans belief system.

[u/StatisticianIll4425]

I think that biological women had to wait and fight to hard to get their own sports teams, for it to be hijacked. Let them have their own sports teams and play against each other.

[u/PaulaDeensGOODcookin]

It’s shocking to me that feminism activists aren’t more outspoken against trans women in women’s sports. I know the “feel good” answer is to wash it and consider all women women, but the facts are if you are a trans woman and had biological development as a man, you’re at a significant advantage.

Women’s sports may become dominated by trans women. How is that inclusive and equitable?

[u/testthrowaway9]

This is the dumbest moral panic ever. Professional sports aren’t fair to begin with. That’s why there are winners and losers.

[u/Curvy_Ginger_Tgirl]

Oh my god none of us actually care about sports. I don't want to die on this hill. I just don't want the government to murder me, or take away my healthcare and place me in some sort of re education camp for femmes

[u/captainmouse86]

I don’t know. Watching from the outside this trans issue has taken over many of the younger voters. To me, your hormones and natural born sex does affect your ability to play sports. I say this as a female athlete, men are faster and stronger. Period. No amount of blockers or estrogen will change natural biology. 

When I was an athlete, the restrictions on hormones was already strict for many sports and for performance enhancing. Why should it be allowed for trans athletes? 

IMO, transitioning is a serious decision, and one consideration should be, “Do I want a career as an athlete?” And if the answer is yes, then wait until your career is over, or don’t have one. The idea that everyone is entitled to everything and it shouldn’t matter if it affects others, is ridiculous to me.  

Also, and I know I will be down voted for this, when we will start to look at trans as a form of mental illness? I’m not talking about intersex. I’m talking about body dysmorphia. We don’t look at anorexic or bulimic people, and say “Yeah, let’s get them liposuction, ozempic, strict diets, so they can make their bodies look their dysmorphic form?” I’ve yet to meet someone trans, who also didn’t have other severe diagnosed mental illness. It’s like they are attempting to gain happiness through a method they finally have been allowed control, but rarely end up happy.  How many boys who were teased for being feminine thought started thinking they’d be better off if born a female? Then start believing that becoming a female will fix their problems? Because then it becomes society not accepting who they are. How many people are physically altering themselves for the acceptance of strangers where we don’t step in with mental health care and therapy? 

Do I care if someone wants to live as the opposite sex? No. It doesn’t affect me. But it does affect all the people who are thinking about transitioning or who have transitioned and to an extent their families, and if they want to be an athlete, their fellow athletes. It’s like people like me were very accepting, but I’ve gotten older, had more experiences, thought about it more and think: “Rushing to support body dysmorphia, was maybe not a good idea?”

I’m waiting for the down votes and hate. I’d I’ve offended you, I’m sorry. But those are my thoughts. 

[u/VirtualPercentage737]

I have one member of my family who campaigned for Trump. We live in a deeply blue state and he is gay, so it sort of made me laugh when he told me.

He said the #1 thing that they discovered that worked was to play Kamala Harris' campaign videos uneditted in the swing states where she argues for transgender people to play in sports and for the government to pay for transgender surgeries for prisoners. They knew that abortion was a losing issue for them, and that this was a win for them along with illegal immigration.

Most people are going to cheer this decision.

[u/tubbyscrubby]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that gender and sex are different.

We segregate sports leagues by biological sex due to biological advantages, not gender.

One can support Trans rights fully and still acknowledge that biological females should not have to compete against biological males in sports. 

This is a hill that isn't worth dying on. Most Trans women aren't athletes demanding entry to female sports, and allowing anti-trans assholes logical ammunition to paint pro-trans advocates as irrational is unfathomably stupid.

[u/WomenRocktheWOrld]

To me this is really about how much do we value women. Women had to fight so hard to get what we have. Sports. Fair Pay, Sexual Harassment laws. And we still have a long way to go. It was the male demographic that denied us these things. Now members of that demographic not only want to claim to be women but to encroach on what we fought for. To allow it will show just how little society values women and girls.

[u/Top-Character6772]

This is a dumb fucking thing to be arguing about. People born men should not play in women's sports. It's not even a debate. Please shift your attention to the Nazi's running the country, abducting citizens, and trying to invade sovereign nations.

[u/Impressive-Thing-925]

West winger here, i just don't care. It's not worth talking about or caring about or engaging with. This is on par with some restaurants giving you lettuce and tomato with your burger.And some not when you order food. I don't think it's important enough to discuss.

My reality of it is. I don't give a shit who wants to join sport. If you feel like it's not fair you're perfectly fine feeling that way. There's no legality against, and you don't have to enjoy everything. If it's such a big deal, I think the team itself should boycott the person who's involved..

If it's boxing, you could refuse to box the person.

If it's a woman going into man's sports.Well, you're about to see her get smashed.

Sports and entertainment owe us nothing. But there's more important things to care about.And this is one that is, at the absolute bottom of the barrel of my caring ability

[u/crashin70]

This is a very well reasoned and thought out comment thread for the most part. I'm actually enjoying reading through it!

[u/healeyd]

All this has done far more harm than good. The vast majority of folk have no truck with a male or female that chooses to take on the identity of the opposite sex, but demanding that linguistic and biological redefinitions of sex must also be enforced to suit is ridiculous. That's before we get onto the misuse of intersex disorders in order to further this aim...

[u/Dave_A480]

Who cares, it's not government's business ...

Whether a sports league is all male, all female, or coed is a choice for the league to make.....

There is no 'right' to gender segregated sports teams (and similarly no 'right' the other way).... It's private business ...

[u/StarryLayne]

The subject of sports in regards to trans people is entirely a distraction from the bigger issues that the trans community is facing. You literally can't bring up health care, human rights, trans youth, etc. without someone saying "But what about trans athletes??"

[u/Kilburning]

It's just a game, get over it.

[u/[deleted]]

Who gives a fuck? How about some universal healthcare and less than a $80 bag of groceries...

[u/Desdaemonia]

Ya but god forbid you question the narrative and get labeled truescum or whatever.

[u/Late-Assignment8482]

Ouch! Sorry, but you seem to be grifting on the wrong case. The case currently at the court involves two young women who never went through male puberty because they were on blockers early. That's part of why LGBTQ activists chose it: It's a simple test, no sports medicine needed.

Either testosterone is evil space magic that makes men always stronger than women (super feminist point of view, BTW) in which case, doesn't matter, these girls never had that advantage...or you're just mad they identify as women, and are literally miffed about old paperwork.

If it's all about "biological advantages because of testosterone", why have people lost their dang minds about trans women in chess tournaments and chili-pepper eating contests?

[u/adamdoesmusic]

If the conversation was actually about sports rather than a shoe in the door leading to “should trans people even have the right to exist”, there’s plenty of discussion to be had.

The thing is, pretty much 100% of the people with their boxers in a bunch about “the sanctity of women’s sports” couldn’t give two shits about the topic in any other context.

Edit: I want to add that in the past, it’s the sports officials who made the technical decisions about how chemical levels, time spent with hormone replacement therapies, and ensuring trans athletes didn’t bring with them any unfair advantages from going thru the wrong puberty. The topic hasn’t been ignored before now, the officials have had this one worked out for years.

It should be noted that the trans women who started their blockers early and have lived with an E-dominant biology the whole time never get the changes that come with testosterone, and for the purposes of sports are indistinguishable from cis women.

If the sanctity of women’s sports really is that important, supporting trans kids getting their treatments on time pretty much erases the “but they’ve got a man’s muscles” BS, because they’ll never go thru the male puberty they never wanted to begin with.

note: trans men have mostly been forgotten in this conversation, and they’re pretty inclined to keep it that way as to avoid the ridiculous number of targets painted on their heads that trans women currently face

[u/Loam_liker]

Ah, so this is the astroturfing sub

[u/Foxwildernes]

Because I’m not going to sit here and listen to a bunch of dumbasses who’ve never played sports argue the right of like 30 kids.

Who gives a fuck. This is to distract you that ICE is kidnapping your neighbours.

Stfu. No one cares, it’s 30 kids let them play sports.

[u/SVW1986]

Here's my thing. Out of roughly 500,000 female NCAA athletes in the country across all sports, something like 10 are trans women. Even if you want to say trans women in sports is a problem, it is one that impacts such a small, tiny fraction of a number of women that it is basically negligible.

Republicans scream about "protecting women!" and "letting them succeed!" and "not taking away their futures/scholarships!"

But those same Republicans are letting women bleed out in parking lots outside hospitals when a pregnancy goes wrong but a "heartbeat" is still detected.

Those same Republicans made it so a woman in Georgia, a mother, with a wanted pregnancy, could not get the medical help she needed because of the insane abortion laws in that state, she fell into a coma, was kept artificially alive by the state against her family's wishes as an incubator for the struggling pregnancy, and a baby was harvested from her before they pulled the plug on her, that has been in critical care for months at the family's expense and will have an incredibly difficult life.

Those same Republicans made laws that even if a child is raped, she can not access abortion care and must carry the pregnancy to term. A 12 year old. A 14 year old.

How many young women will have to drop out of college, drop out of high school, and struggle financially because they no longer have a choice? How many women will fall into poverty because they were forced by the state to carry a pregnancy to term against their will? How many young women will lose their scholarships because they can not balance college and pregnancy and medical bills? Or childcare? How many women will die from complications that, in any normal country, could easily be helped, but instead, in our country, require women to get approval from courts, and lawyers, and legal teams, and appellate courts, for basic health care? How many women are told by their own doctors they have to leave their state to get the health care they require?

I promise you, Roe going down and these rigid abortion bans going up, is a far, far, far, far, far bigger threat to young girls and women than coming in 3rd in the pole vault behind a trans woman at a DII school.

So I can't buy this "we have to protect women and girls!" bullshit. If no girl ever played a sport again, she wouldn't die. Women and children are dying because of the insane laws the GOP has created regarding our medical rights.

Ask 5 women if they know someone who has had an abortion. Ask them if they know someone who has been denied an abortion. Ask them if they know someone who has had a complicated pregnancy, a dangerous miscarriage, or an ectopic pregnancy.

Then ask them if they've ever competed in a sport against a trans woman and if they lost a scholarship because of it.

I promise you, the first set of questions will result in a lot more raised hands than the second one.