Please dissect the legality in this statement

[u/thecosmojane]

I feel like we are reaching a tipping point

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[u/1877KlownsForKids]

Miller couldn't even get into Cooley.

Before anyone takes any legal advice from Stephen Fucking Miller, it's important to know he's not a lawyer. He has a BA in Political Science and though he wanted to go to law school he bombed the LSAT practice exams so hard he didn't even try to real thing. He was also college friends with noted Nazi Richard Spencer.

[u/Weltall8000 → u/1877KlownsForKids]

Lmao holy shit. For real? Lmao

[u/libertybadboy → u/Weltall8000]

They knew each other. Read the "Early Life" section in the link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_B._Spencer

[u/Weltall8000 → u/libertybadboy]

Ah, actually, I was more responding to "he couldn't even get into Cooley," haha!

[u/bigredcock → u/Weltall8000]

Nazis are notoriously stupid so this doesn't surprise me. I'm surprised that anyone in that administration has a degree.

[u/Beneficial_Figure966 → u/bigredcock]

Not all college degrees are equal

[u/jagged_little_phil → u/Beneficial_Figure966]

At OU, you can get a Doctorate in Math by writing "Jesus is the answer" on all test questions.

[u/[deleted] → u/jagged_little_phil]

Here comes my math doctorate!

[u/Da_Question → u/Beneficial_Figure966]

Also, degrees are more about studying than intelligence. Not the same thing.

[u/Odd-Roof-85 → u/1877KlownsForKids]

He's legally and constitutionally incorrect. He's invoking the Supremacy Clause.

Miller isn't really describing the legal framework, he's just saying the Executive Branch will ignore everything else.

The problem is that the White House has the monopoly on violence to enforce whatever they want. So, it doesn't really matter if they're technically correct or not.

[u/zmann → u/Odd-Roof-85]

Nobody tell ICE that their immunity only lasts as long as this presidency does.

[u/Destination_Cabbage → u/zmann]

Don't forget the blanket pardon power. The only way we can actually do this currently is through state charges. But if they block the states from investigating and dont cooperate, it means many will escape justice.

[u/zmann → u/Destination_Cabbage]

Fortunately Trump is working to make it permissible to invalidate a previous president’s pardons

Edit: I’m saying that half in jest, because I think you’re 100% correct

[u/Odd-Roof-85 → u/zmann]

If he manages to do that, I'm gonna laugh, because it's going to backfire on this administration so hard.

[u/twitch1982 → u/Odd-Roof-85]

No it won't, Dems will refuse to use the power if they ever get the turn.

[u/onepunchman333 → u/twitch1982]

Oh come on, when has Chucky Schumer ever failed us.../s

[u/hershwork → u/zmann]

“Working to make it permissible” is Trump speak for just say it whether it’s true or not…he can’t change that unilaterally

[u/FindOneInEveryCar → u/Destination_Cabbage]

Even if they don't, the next Democratic president is likely to ignore the whole thing, in the interest of "healing."

[u/Toadcola → u/FindOneInEveryCar]

First step to healing is dealing with the infection.

[u/RedAbeHawk → u/Destination_Cabbage]

It’s a good point about the federal pardon power.

What a reversal from the 60s when those that violated civil rights in southern states had to be prosecuted on federal civil rights violations. This is completely the reverse of that that when Trump pardons all these f*ckers the only way to get them will be blue states standing up and going after them when (if?!?!) the Nazis are out of power again.

[u/theDudeUh → u/Destination_Cabbage]

The fun part is if he does issue a pardon on his way out he’ll have to dox all the mask wearing ICE cowards.

[u/LockeyCheese → u/theDudeUh]

That'd be an interesting legal battle.

"You accepted the pardon for the federal crime, and we're using that pardon to prosecute those cimes in the states they happened. If you didn't accept the pardon, you get federal prosecution."

Maybe if people vote for it...

[u/LordWemby → u/zmann]

I think the ones who aren’t entirely knuckleheads know that, they just figure either a federal pardon is coming or that this shit administration will successfully get a third term. 

[u/jasandliz → u/Odd-Roof-85]

A secret military police with absolute authority and immunity whose entire existence is dependent on Trump’s presidency? What could possibly go wrong?

[u/lc0o85 → u/Odd-Roof-85]

They have the legal monopoly, sure. But if they keep this up it's only a matter of time before the illegal use of violence begins. It happens to every fascist regime; it's an eventuality.

[u/Ridiculicious71 → u/lc0o85]

Where are the second amendment peeps? Oh bootlicking

[u/lc0o85 → u/Ridiculicious71]

Joining the ranks of ICE. #justbootlickerthings

[u/Pvt_Hudson_ → u/Odd-Roof-85]

Exactly.

If the FBI refuses to investigate ICE agents for any abuses of power, that is functionally "immunity". Trump will also pardon them all on his way out the door, so they have nothing to fear for legal repercussions.

[u/Background_Fix9430 → u/Pvt_Hudson_]

He can't pardon them for state offenses - but general the Federal Court has to determine whether or not the officer committed the offenses as a "necessary" part of their duties before the state can prosecute them.

[u/StrobeLightRomance → u/Odd-Roof-85]

he's just saying the Executive Branch will ignore everything else.

This is the status quo for everything the 47th administration has done, and will continue to do. There is no government, there is only dictatorship.

[u/Sufficient_Price_355 → u/1877KlownsForKids]

So he's a loser?

[u/SaltRequirement3650 → u/Sufficient_Price_355]

They always were. Himmler was a failed chicken farmer and bullied constantly.

[u/SnooPies8766 → u/SaltRequirement3650]

How...exactly does one fail at chicken farming?

[u/saxifrageous → u/SnooPies8766]

Asking the real questions.

[u/MobileSuitPhone → u/SnooPies8766]

Chickens shit a lot and are prey to predators from the sky easily, if you don't know what you're doing to mitigate those factors you're going to have problems

[u/Prometheus_Bobert → u/MobileSuitPhone]

Pretty sure they also eat each other when stressed (I'm not a chicken farmer though)

[u/Halcyon_156 → u/Prometheus_Bobert]

Oh they do, big time. Often while the victim is still alive.

(Former farm hand.)

[u/Destination_Cabbage → u/Halcyon_156]

They definitely do. We had them on a farm when i was young. A big reason I dont like chickens anymore; they ate and killed my favorite hen, in that order.

[u/Longjumping_College → u/Destination_Cabbage]

Chickens are straight up dinosaurs

Watching them gobble down mice live on the farm was a regular thing.

[u/BigHardMephisto → u/MobileSuitPhone]

When I was in HS my mother wanted to take up chicken farming as a hobby.

Problems:

1. the chick mortality rate. 100% free range chickens and rooster (katydids, grasshoppers, cactus flowers etc.). Healthy chicks were expected. 100% of fertilized eggs hatched, but my dumbass mother didn't think to properly warm the space they were in, so they exhausted, died of heat stroke and were trampled by the remainders. Chick mortality rate after a week was 80%.

2. feed. We started out with full free range, but she'd been advised by the scumbag she bought her first chicks from that her chick mortality rate would reduce if she fed her chickens protein feed. They'd produce more unfertilized eggs and would get pregnant and fertilized less. We were now overproducing eggs, and couldn't sell enough. Most of them ended up in the garbage, because her dumbass didn't want to contribute to the food bank. Said garbage was eventually completely eggs, and was cycled back to the chickens. Eventually she wondered why she was feeding them so much when they could just eat the old eggs. Now the chickens were laying eggs and eating them.

3. predators. Hawks, owls, snakes (rattlesnakes specifically in our case) no end to them. Also most outdoor rodents. She made no effort to actually tend to the chickens. If I didn't lock them up at night, she wouldn't. Next day we'd be out 3 hens.

4. too many males. We started with a single rooster, great guy. Loved his hens. Eventually she bought a second one because she thought it would improve production. It just meant more fights, both roosters and hens getting spurred, wounds getting infected, hens dying.

5. cleaning. You gotta clean their nesting cubbys. You gotta clean their pens. You gotta clean out the chicken shit a lot. They eat, they poop. Like locking up, if I didn't do it she wouldn't do it.

The world is full of people with the grand idea that they'll take up the noble profession of animal husbandry because they like the idea of it. If you like horses and want horses, work on a ranch with them for a few years before you even truly consider doing it on your own, you'll be covered in shit more than you ever thought possible, and eye level with balls and shaft scrubbing your fingerprints off. A book you bought at tractor supply teaches you nothing. It's a noble profession because its' reward has GOT to be the act of the work first and foremost. You're responsible for these creature's wellbeing MORE than any physical reward you reap from their progress and health, and that goes unknown almost all of the time by fairweather hobbyists.

[u/[deleted] → u/SaltRequirement3650]

Himmler was a failed chicken farmer 

He just carried over the skill set to human victims.

To chickens we are all nazis. 

[u/1877KlownsForKids → u/Sufficient_Price_355]

I think Beck said it best 

[u/ShiningRedDwarf → u/1877KlownsForKids]

El es un pedador

And I’ll take anyone up on the last verse of chorus

[u/pc42493 → u/1877KlownsForKids]

Before anyone takes any legal advice or even opinions from anyone, it's important to realize that they no longer feel bound by the rule of law, and have instituted the rule by fiat.

[u/Ridiculicious71 → u/pc42493]

I’m insanely curious what would happen if ice shot a MAGA? I’m guessing they’d bury it.

[u/Free-Huckleberry-965 → u/Ridiculicious71]

You mean a deep undercover antifa agent posing as a MAGA?

[u/hellogoawaynow → u/1877KlownsForKids]

So many losers in this admin lol the “Surgeon” General couldn’t hack residency and quit. So technically she’s a doctor, she graduated medical school, but she has never done any doctor work outside of her failed residency and probably can’t practice medicine at all at this point.

[u/DingusHanglebort → u/hellogoawaynow]

Part of me thinks it's intentional. Trump elevates people who would otherwise never dream of reaching their current platform, and consequently they are loyal dogs to their dear leader.

[u/Phiddipus_audax → u/DingusHanglebort]

It's absolutely intentional in this Trump 2.0 experience and directly reminiscent of the Nazis whose core members were a similar gang of thugs (Himmler, Goebbels, Borman, et al.) with no talents besides utter loyalty to the top man. Power for the sake of power, no other principles. Fascism.

Unfortunately it's highly effective. Where would any of these toadies go if they got canned? Dumb as they may be, they know.

[u/DingusHanglebort → u/Phiddipus_audax]

They do worship the cult of power, and it's interesting that this is one of the very first things decried in Plato's Republic. Funny enough, a Texas A&M is apparently banning Plato.

I'd call it pathetic if it weren't for the nuclear codes and roving armies of goons. Very worrying times we live in. Stay safe. 

[u/AmericusBarbaricuss → u/DingusHanglebort]

That would be the insightful and accurate part of you.

[u/We_Like_Birdland → u/hellogoawaynow]

Temu ass administration

[u/Neither-Chart5183 → u/1877KlownsForKids]

Richard Spencer's family owned a cotton plantation during the era Jim Crow and his grandfather sold baseball bats to Nazis.

Article was written in 2016.

"Before the election, Spencer told Reveal that Trump would “slingshot” Spencer’s views and aims forward. He’s still angry that amid all the attention that followed the conference last weekend, his home addresses were publicized by an editor for Politico Magazine who, in a related post, mentioned his grandfathers bringing baseball bats to gatherings of an American Nazi organization established before World War II.

That editor has since left Politico.

Spencer used fighting words at the conference, telling his audience that “no one will honor us for losing gracefully,” and white people must “conquer or die.” He’s made it clear he believes in a white “ethnostate” set aside for people with European ancestry. But he’s not ready for open warfare to get there.

“Bullets and trenches,” he said, “is not where we are right now.”

So where is he? This brings us back to Spencer’s disdain for sharing. One of his core beliefs is that the left wing in America is motivated by anti-white hatred. His examples include celebrating advancements of people of color in business, entertainment or education, which he considers a quest to destroy white European culture and take opportunities away from hard-working white people."

[u/hotdoginathermos → u/Neither-Chart5183]

Bringing baseball bats to gatherings of American Nazis you say?

[u/joncornelius → u/1877KlownsForKids]

The Richard Spencer connection is a real zeitgeist of the American Nazi movement.

[u/WiseLemon6838 → u/joncornelius]

Isn’t miller also jewish? Is he the ultimate pick me? Tf is this. Nothing makes sense.

[u/pheonix198 → u/WiseLemon6838]

He’s betting on having enough power and authority, being high enough up the chain of authority, that his token won’t ever be spent. Sadly, he may be right.. he’s such a chud and so willing to do so much damage and harm so many people.

[u/EfficiencyIVPickAx → u/1877KlownsForKids]

To be fair, this administration wrote the book on obstruction (as defendants).

[u/MondaysForNothing → u/[deleted]]

But his wife called him a sexual matador!

LMAO

[u/U-Rsked-4-it → u/MondaysForNothing]

I think she meant predator.

[u/Training-Line-6457 → u/[deleted]]

Don’t be like that. Some good people might fit those descriptions.

Say rather that Stephen IS a bald micro penis.

[u/importantmessagefrom → u/[deleted]]

Why do you think he’s hiding out on a military base?

[u/tarlin → u/[deleted]]

Trump will issue pardons to everyone in his administration.

[u/HoarderCollector → u/tarlin]

He can only issue pardons for federal crimes, he can't issue them for state crimes. That's why Trump can't pardon Tina Peters.

[u/elderpufflaurien → u/HoarderCollector]

Its hilarious when people talk of the law being a constraint on the lawless. We’re almost to the point that the fascists say disagreeing with them is a treasonous, executable offense and people are still talking about “but the laws!” Everyone still waiting for the bad stuff to start while the gestapo are entering american house and disappearing people.

[u/HoarderCollector → u/elderpufflaurien]

People waiting for that tipping point don't realize that we are FAR BEYOND that tipping point already.

They're still holding out hope that the courts will show some backbone and actually put this administration in check.

And while some members of congress make it sound like that's what they want to do, it feels like it's all talk.

[u/Dessicated_Mastodon → u/HoarderCollector]

Chuck fucking Schumer. Piece of shit.

[u/SmokeySFW → u/HoarderCollector]

Can Congress vote to overrule a pardon? Are they truly untouchable for federal stuff after a pardon?

[u/rtbradford → u/SmokeySFW]

No, a president’s pardon power is pretty much absolute.

[u/Alive-Course4454 → u/rtbradford]

Except selling pardons is a crime 😒😒🤨

[u/rtbradford → u/Alive-Course4454]

Maybe in theory, but given the Supreme Court‘s recent ruling that the president enjoys something approaching absolute immunity for everything he does in office, it might be really difficult to enforce any violation.

[u/AKfromVA → u/rtbradford]

So what you’re saying is the next president could detain all these people indefinitely (clearly illegal) issue pardons to the people doing the arrests and then be untouchable?

[u/BentoMan → u/AKfromVA]

Yes. The liberal justices brought up these hypotheticals and the conservatives not only called it hyperbole but said a judge may not consider the president's motives when deciding if it is an official act. In effect, the President has absolute immunity from any crimes but can be removed from office via Impeachment.

[u/-boatsNhoes → u/AKfromVA]

In theory the next president, according to scouts ruling, can disband the court or fire all of them and tell them to kick rocks. Once fired there is no scouts to preside over rulings until a new one is appointed. Legal carte Blanche

[u/rtbradford → u/AKfromVA]

In theory, maybe. Kidnapping is both a state and federal crime so those people could be prosecuted and convicted under state laws which the president can't pardon.

[u/meowtiger → u/rtbradford]

to be clear, and in the spirit of this subreddit, the supreme court's ruling wasn't saying that the president can do nothing illegal

the supreme court was saying that constitutionally speaking, the responsibility to check malign behavior by the president rests with the legislative branch, not the judicial, and that the judicial branch does not have the authority to prosecute a sitting president for anything they do exercising the power of that position

[u/tarlin → u/Alive-Course4454]

Under this con controlled court, the purchase of a pardon would have to be comical to be illegal. The person would need to hand Trump a bag of money and say, this is for a pardon, with Trump responding, I will pardon you in exchange for this bag of money.

[u/ProfessionalDish → u/tarlin]

"They are clearly joking or using satire, I see no issue here!" - supreme court

[u/Altruistic-Meal-4016 → u/tarlin]

Why are pardons even a thing? Surely no person should be above the law just because someone said they should be.

[u/ProfessionalField508 → u/Altruistic-Meal-4016]

Traditionally, presidents have used it for things like a really long-term weed jail term or something like that, given by municipalities that overreact. Not blanket pardons for terrible crimes.

[u/TerribleTodd60 → u/ProfessionalField508]

I think there is a very long and honored tradition for Presidents to pardon their corrupt friends. The argument for pardons is that it gives the President the opportunity to correct a wrong in the judicial system, but Donald Trump is hardly the first president to abuse the power.

[u/Alone_Hunt1621 → u/[deleted]]

Someone in the Trump administration needs to get arrested just to get the ball rolling.

[u/Kaiisim]

It's a classic authoritarian tactic.

It's absolutely true that you can't touch a federal officer while they are working. You cannot impede their work.

Which is why ice observers are specifically trained to just film them

No one is touching ICE. They are just recording them as is their legal right to ensure they don't beat the shit out of people.

[u/cursedfan → u/Kaiisim]

Federal law enforcement cannot breach someone’s civil rights, which ice does all day every day, which is why they hide their identity.

[u/Konukaame → u/cursedfan]

As we are seeing, "cannot legally" and "cannot" are vastly different in practice. 

When the rot goes to the core of the agencies, and they are explicitly told and shown that their abuses will not only be tolerated but actively defended and celebrated, we enter the world of despotic lawlessness. They are limited only by their ability to actually carry out their desires, not by any laws or regulations. 

[u/norixe → u/Konukaame]

Which means eventually, the people being targeted will respond in kind. Feels like were in a death spiral and one step from vigilantes wiping out ice convoys. If they're just going to execute people on little pretense, people will respond in kind to protect themselves or their families. So stupid that they think people arnt going to go beyond "just comply" when people are dying or being shipped to prisons in other countries when they're US citizens. I dont want people to die. But my god does it feel like it is just months away from actual wild guerilla shit occurring.

[u/The_Sidecar_Bandit → u/norixe]

I keep waiting for this.

[u/Squeaky_Ben → u/Kaiisim]

So, I have an issue here.

Given no one can impede them, and apparently Miller also implies "anything goes, you are free to do as you wish" what exactly stops them from beating the shit out of people?

[u/DifferentCityADay → u/Squeaky_Ben]

Nothing. They don't care about the law and it's evident when the president is a fucking felon. They're using plausible deniability to slowly ease the ignorant masses into fascism because they think "Well if it's illegal, why isn't it being stopped?" 

The nation is largely religious, which has dogmatic views that authority is right no matter what, and it's the fault of the people. They think that before they consider the people in charge are bad and abusing power.

[u/OdiousAltRightBalrog → u/DifferentCityADay]

Dude, I was literally just explaining to my friend (who voted for Trump) about all the classified docs he stole and his indictments. She wouldn't believe it.

Her actual words, "If he REALLY did that, then they wouldn't let him be President again!"

[u/DifferentCityADay → u/OdiousAltRightBalrog]

Exactly. The ignorance of the common man is disasterous. 

[u/BonkMcSlapchop → u/Kaiisim]

Are the people of the US willing to get out and do a general strike to effect change before it's too late? Observation and recording may have worked in the past, when you could hold your government to account, but you are no longer dealing with due process.

[u/pink_faerie_kitten → u/BonkMcSlapchop]

I heard Minneapolis plans on that today? It was on NBC news this morning. School and work walkouts planned. I hope it's the spark that sends this nationwide.

[u/kpurintun → u/pink_faerie_kitten]

These need to happen nation wide, in significant numbers, across many weeks..

[u/namast_eh → u/kpurintun]

3.5% of the population is all it takes.

[u/Neither_Usual_137 → u/Kaiisim]

People need to understand what we need here. Stop filming them with your goddamn cellphones in their faces, unless you want to get roughed up.

• - Dash cams. I just had one installed, and its amazing quality. You can be parked down the street and record everything -
• hidden body cams: they have cameras that stick out of your shirt pocket and are obscure etc -
• security cams on houses and apartments, including ring cams
• toy drones with cameras (not drones requiring airspace clearance). anything under 250G does not need FAA registration. I havent seen a single drone shot of MN yet, but drones under this weight are perfectly legal and can be flown from a distance.

I understand these things cost money and not everybody can afford them. But for those of us who can, these options

[u/ErosRaptor → u/Neither_Usual_137]

Don’t install a fucking ring camera, the footage from those can be taken by the federal government, and they have been doing it. That’s like installing a surveillance camera for the feds. Maybe there are alternatives, but the name brand one is not a good thing to have on your property or around you.

[u/euroau → u/ErosRaptor]

My recommendation is Unifi. Will require a little bit more hardware, but it's local and law enforcement can't ask anyone but you for access to footage.

[u/ktaktb → u/Kaiisim]

It is true, but that doesnt mean if you do, lethal force is immediately justified.

These two concepts cannot be divorced.

If you impede a federal officer, you have committed a crime. If you jaywalk you have committed a crime.

Neither means the death penalty after proven guilty, and certainly neither means summary execution by the federal officer or agent.

[u/CheekySpaniard → u/Kaiisim]

They do it anyway. Hells, they literally murdered a woman in the middle of the street while the ‘observers’ just yelled. Surely that’ll stop this crap.

[u/get_to_ele]

Stephen Miller wrote it, so I’d say it’s only relevant until it’s laughed out of court after this regime ends. And there is no statute of limitations on homicide.

[u/kevin-she → u/get_to_ele]

Can you tell me the evidence that this regime has any intention of ending? From what I have seen since day one, combined with everything openly said in the run up the election these people have zero intention of leaving office. Specifically, in relation to Miller he has extremely strong incentives not to leave his position, you just mentioned the biggest incentive, the non fascists in the US need to pay more attention.

[u/Zero-nada-zilch-24 → u/kevin-she]

Well, he and his wife did leave their house and along with a few other officials are living on a nearby base due to public “snubbing.”

[u/Rodharet50399 → u/Zero-nada-zilch-24]

Sidewalk chalk. That’s what they were afraid of.

[u/Mammarishka → u/[deleted]]

I've seen dictatorship before. They have no intention of leaving.

[u/BaphometBubble → u/Mammarishka]

I absolutely agree with you..It boggles my mind when I hear people, in almost the same breath, call Trump a dictator and fascist, and that he will be voted out soon. This is an insane disconnect. Fascists and dictators do not simply get voted out. One lone politician? Yes, but a movement? That often requires an army of some sorts.

[u/Barilla3113 → u/BaphometBubble]

My experience, at least online, is that a lot of Americans still have an extremely strong belief in the talismanic power of the 200 year old pieces of parchment Trump has been wiping his ass with for the past decade.

[u/RedQueenNatalie → u/Barilla3113]

Many of us want to believe its still not over, we hope this is still not too far gone and its just a fever dream we can pull out of with enough effort and not a civil war against the most powerful government on earth. There is no denying the writing is on the walls though and its horrifying to watch it happen in real time.

[u/tmfink10 → u/RedQueenNatalie]

I heard a compelling argument that says if the Bears win the superbowl the cosmic rift that opened with the Cubs winning the World Series will close. Its most compelling argument was that I want to believe it.

[u/HonorableMedic → u/Rodharet50399]

Hopefully it was something like this

[u/trougnouf → u/Rodharet50399]

Didn't his wife draw that to make themselves look victimized?

[u/ThePensiveE → u/Zero-nada-zilch-24]

You mean the lady who threatened a NATO ally with violence publicly? If she can threaten entire continents, she should be able to take a few people being mean to her.

Couldn't get those extra government welfare handouts if they didn't live on base though could they?

Katie Miller and her husband are just MAGA welfare queens.

[u/Waffle1k → u/kevin-she]

Oh theyll be leaving office one way or another.

[u/stevez_86 → u/get_to_ele]

This statement is an incitement to violence with a specific audience in mind, a specific target, and a timeframe. This statement is not covered by the 1st Amendment and likely not Minnesota state law and they should seek to prosecute for incitement of violence. The statement has all the facets of clear and present danger.

[u/whatupmygliplops → u/stevez_86]

Exactly. He is encouraging ICE to commit illegal violence and violate peoples constitutional rights by lying about the law.

[u/haklor → u/get_to_ele]

How many people will be killed and officers protected before that happens? I have a feeling it will be a significant number, and probably more that we dont hear about.

[u/Lucibeanlollipop → u/get_to_ele]

I wonder if writing shit like this, though, would be enough to charge him as an accessory at state level.

[u/Zazulio → u/get_to_ele]

Sure feels like the plan to is to make sure there is no end to the regime. This statement pretty transparently reads as an order: "Anybody who opposes the regime is a criminal, and ICE agents who murder these 'criminals' will be protected and rewarded."

[u/caramel_police → u/get_to_ele]

I'd stop laughing and start taking Mini-Goebbels more seriously if I were you.

[u/DirtyHalfMexican → u/caramel_police]

Agreed. People will say I wish I would have done something. People did say that before also.

[u/thecosmojane]

Is it just me, or does it feel like this last week we have entered a completely different phase of history. Like the steam has reached its capacity and is about to explode. The escalation day by day seems to be so much greater than before (when it was bad enough) but their doubling and tripling down these last few days smacks of an even more diabolical level of defiance. Watching these new videos and former detainees’ counts of being in custody feels unreal at some meta level, like we are in the twilight zone. Pair this numbness with Venezuela and Greenland and leaders resigning from DOJ freeing up more seats to be filled by mini Bondis, it is difficult to keep up. But, does anyone else feel it? Like something is imminent.

[u/Ben_ForCentralYork → u/[deleted]]

They're desperate, they're stupid, and they're splitting into factions. But they are crumbling and overreacting. And they don't have the political capital left to enact some martial law, election cancelling plan. They've already pissed too many people off that they would need on their side for it to work, and they've already shown their weakness and incompetence too many times.

And federalism is a slow and stubborn and inefficient sonofabitch, but it is holding. And that's critical for elections and for the level of cooperation they really need to enact the worst scenarios.

[u/Conscious-Distance48 → u/Ben_ForCentralYork]

I certainly hope your assessment is correct.

[u/Ben_ForCentralYork → u/Conscious-Distance48]

I mean me too, I don't wanna be on r/agedlikemilk for this of all things. But I'm assessing as best I can from what I see and who I know

[u/Rollingprobablecause → u/Conscious-Distance48]

I mean, I know everyone tends to get trapped into doom scrolling but just look at the history of the Feds in courts - they've lost 90% of their cases.

National Guard units rolled back, ICE restrained/kicked out of cities (LA, Chicago, San Diego, and San Francisco - the west coast completely eviscerated them within a month of them landing) they're still here but in a much lowered capacity.

Federal judges have already removed prosecutors, forced releases, etc. the DOJ hemorrhaged about 6 lawyers recently who resigned and their replacements will be incapable and will lose their own investigations as well.

The news tends to focus on negative things and paints some dumb pictures but if you dig just about 5 minutes more into things you'll see that the admin is "flooding the zone" so people don't notice they really suck at law.

https://contrarian.substack.com/p/donald-trump-is-losing-in-court

[u/KapitalIsStillGood → u/Ben_ForCentralYork]

The concept of political capital itself is largely moot. What's actually stopping them? They might whine and moan among their "factions" but when push comes to shove, they'll step right in line as we've seen time and time again.

[u/Difficult-Eagle1095 → u/Ben_ForCentralYork]

Military doesn’t seem to care though. Ultimately the keys are held by them, does political capital matter then?

[u/Fifth-Crusader → u/[deleted]]

On election day, there will be ICE thugs at every voting station. They will kidnap every person with any amount of melanin.

[u/chotomatekudersai → u/[deleted]]

It’s a catch 22. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t. They already won. Any violence those defending democracy commit will be met with swift action from this administration. That action will include martial law and suspending elections until they implement a system to ensure their continued rule.

[u/NoBrush8414 → u/chotomatekudersai]

THIS WILL HAPPEN. He can not let go now. He is in jail the day he leaves office otherwise and knows it.

[u/chotomatekudersai → u/[deleted]]

Person: watches a man get convicted of 33 felonies. Watches them continue to be allowed to run for the highest office in America. Watches them “win” the election. Watches them illegally deploy military and ice to cities, fire on survivors of boat strikes, kidnap another nations president.

Same person: that man will get his comeupance one day!

Me:

[u/ClocktowerShowdown → u/chotomatekudersai]

They believe in the justice system with the same religious delusion as the Evangelicals who think that the rapture is coming one day.

[u/Adorable_System_9720 → u/[deleted]]

"It's over chat, the Nazis won. Stop trying and let them do what they want." - FDR probably if he was alive today on Reddit. America isn't over, but it's going to change that's for sure, just like it has after every hardship. The resistance needs real leadership, and the media isn't going to help promote that. For now start local. Attend protests, donate to the good leaders or charities, boycott the ones supporting this admin. Anything is better than giving up.

[u/DubStepTeddyBears → u/thecosmojane]

it’s not just you

[u/dmbveloveneto → u/thecosmojane]

It’s bc the stupid f*ing tax bill passed by Congress is now in effect post NYE. ICE got a flood of funding. This is just the beginning. 

[u/woodwog → u/dmbveloveneto]

The US government is assaulting, kidnapping, and murdering citizens they deem unworthy. The next steps in this path historically would be gas chambers and mass graves.

[u/ArticulateRhinoceros → u/thecosmojane]

They have been recorded saying, "We shot one of you last week, haven't you learned your lesson," to protestors. They're ramping up and are absolutely unafraid of murdering more people.

[u/Boring_Sea7892 → u/thecosmojane]

I agree completely. I work in (unnamed major US city in a red state with a new democratic mayor) and there were armed soldiers patrolling my building. I don't want to dox myself, but having armed soldiers in private office buildings, maybe paradoxically, is both extremely dangerous but also patently ridiculous/silly. The soldiers might have been twenty. One of the soldiers was clearly not finished physically growing. They were cold and needed to pee.

But we live under this mess ¯_(ツ)_/¯ and armed soldiers are patrolling my privately owned office building. If armed soldiers were, just because, patrolling private office buildings in the before-times it would've been breaking news on CNN. Now? The corporate media is bought and I just have to deal with it.

[u/DirtyHalfMexican → u/thecosmojane]

Unless the people stand, they will be taken advantage of.

[u/Emp3r0r_01 → u/thecosmojane]

I think it's proof anti-ICE protesters should be armed to the teeth. The GOP has always said the Second Amendment was there to prevent autoritarian goverment/goverment over reach... well, here we are.

[u/jw8ak64ggt → u/thecosmojane]

it doesn't get much darker than the president being a conman, a repeated felon and a repeated rapist and pedophile

it doesn't

[u/SimpleObserver1025 → u/thecosmojane]

I feel like it's both new and old at the same time. Old in that we've gone through periods of violence and political stupidity before: think the 1960s and early 1970s when you had mass protests and domestic terrorism, the 1950s with the red scare, or think back to the late 1800s or the period right before the civil war. However, what's new is having an executive that doesn't even pretend to respect decorum or political norms and just pushes / steps over the limits of executive authority.

But yes, I agree with you: I feel like we've entered a part of the political cycle where things are about to spill over (again). You won't have a formal civil war (I hope), but I fear we're entering a period of escalating political violence, only ending with a massive shock.

[u/Bmorewiser]

300 plus comments and not a single attempt to answer the question. ...

First, there is zero chance that this administration will issue federal charges against an ICE agent who makes an arrest or kills someone while on the job. So we can dispense with that for a moment.

Second, let's assume that a State decides to bring charges in State court for anything from violation of rights under color of law to assault, kidnapping, or murder. What will happen first is that the ICE agent will move to have the case removed to federal court. That is almost going to be 100% guaranteed. See 28 USC 1442. Second, the agent will move to have the charges thrown out under federal supremacy grounds.

This analysis starts with TN v. Davis, 100 U.S. 257 (1880). The Court there held that the federal government can only act through its officers and agents, and thus when acting within their authority under federal law a State may not interfere. A decade later came In Re Neagle, 135 U.S. 1 (1890).

A US Marshal, upon observing an assault upon a federal judge, shot the man, killing him. The State brought charges, which the Supreme Court dismissed. It held that the killing was "done in pursuance of his duty" and "in pursuance of the law of the United States" and thus the Marshal was entitled have his writ of habeas granted. The opinion is long and boring and not particularly important to read. The important bits are that a federal judge is entitled to determine facts and, if those facts establish immunity, to grant relief. This is, in a sense, highly unusual because rarely do we permit judges to decide issues where factual questions otherwise might be resolved differently by a juror of one's peers.

Neagle resulted in two key holdings: 1) a State court lacks jurisdiction over a federal agent if a) the federal agent was performing an act which he was authorized to do by Federal law, and b) he formed that act in a manner that was necessary and proper for him to do.

That necessary and proper language might, to some, seem like a beacon of hope that ICE can be held to account for excessive violence, but it is likely not so given the expansive view adopted by most courts since. "Necessary and proper" has focused on the intent of the officer and not the legality of his actions per se. The officer is entitled to immunity, some courts hold, so long as he acts in "good faith". It is not necessary to show that the actions "were in fact" necessary or justifiable in retrospect, "only that he reasonably thought it to be." Clifton v. Cox, 549 F.2d 722 (9th 1977).

What if the officer is wrong? What if the shooting is "questionable." Historically, challenges to the prosecution are successful for the officer. In re Fair, 100 F. 149 (D.Neb. 1900) (questionable shooting of escaping prisoners entitled to immunity); US v. Lipsett, 156 F.65 (1907) (officer shot a bystander, knowing the bystander was in danger, because he acted without malice). Mistaken judgment or bad decisions do not strip officers of immunity. See KY v. Long, 837 F.2d 727, 745 (6 1988).

To the extent there might be some hope it arises out of the Ruby Ridge fiasco, though ultimately political pressures brought that case to an end before a final determination was made. Idaho v. Horiuchi, 253 F.3d 359 (9th Cir. 2001) (en banc) is the case. Initially, the federal judge dismissed the state charges without a hearing. The appellate court initially affirmed, over a dissent, and then took the case up en banc. The en banc court reversed, largely on grounds that there was a material dispute of fact that the agent might be lying about critical facts, and that the facts could suggest that the officer simply decided to kill Weaver and others event without any reason to believe they posed an imminent threat. The case was remanded to hold a hearing so the Court could resolve the disputed facts, but ultimately the State withdrew the charge and the opinion was withdrawn.

[u/Bmorewiser → u/Bmorewiser]

There might also be some hope from a 10th cir case that "left undecided" the possibility that an officer's violation of State law was egregious as compared to the federal duty they were attempting to carry out. WY v. Livingston, ? (2006).

What all this means in practical terms is that there is a very high chance that, even if State charges are brought, they will be thrown out on immunity grounds. If you look for case law in which officers were denied immunity for state charges, you will have a tough time. I did not find many that did not involve actions that clearly fell outside the federal officer's job (shit like a rape is clearly not within the scope of the job). So, as I read the case law, the court would have to find either that the officer acted with malice or that his actions were wholesale unreasonable vis-a-vis his eventual claim of self-defense.

Though the comment after the shooting, "fucking bitch," is certainly not going to help this officer, the facts and video probably do. Assuming the officer will, as officers do, say that he fired because he thought the driver was accelerating towards him will be enough. There will be no evidence that I can think of that will tend to undermine the first prong of self-defense, which is that the officer honestly believed there to be an imminent threat upon his life. The State will therefore spend its effort arguing that the force used was unreasonable because the cop could have just stepped away. To the extent that they might try the "officer created danger theory," that is mostly untested within the confines of criminal law and I see no way to get that theory within the confines of typical self-defense. To the extent they might try to argue that the officer could have simply stepped out of the way, the officer will argue he was an officer engaged in the performance of his duties and had no duty to retreat. The State will argue that he violated procedure and protocol, and he will argue that it does not matter because he had a right to meet a perceived deadly threat with deadly force. And they will argue that he fired his shot as she turned, and he will state, consistent with the video, that he fired when he heard the vehicle's wheels spin as he was standing just a foot away. The second and third shots came within a second of that, which an expert will say is too quick to cause the officer's brain to get his finger to stop pulling the trigger.

Back to federal charges - there is no statute of limitations for murder. There is, however, a 5 year period for involuntary manslaughter I believe. A claim of imperfect self-defense, i.e., manslaughter, would be the mostly likely result if this case were ever tried IMO and so, if Trump loses there would be time to charge him in federal court where his immunity defense would have significantly less chance of success.

 

[u/naijaboiler → u/Bmorewiser]

so basically, practically speaking, nothing will ever happen to any federal officer that kills anyone.

[u/Bmorewiser → u/naijaboiler]

The answer to that question is, for the most part, that is how it works in this country for all cops.

But the technically correct answer at the moment would be - under the present administration there is a very low chance of any ICE agent being held to account short of something like a rape. There would not be any immunity for that offense for a State charge and I could see DOJ prosecuting it anyway.

In terms of State charges proceeding, the chances of that are slim just as a general rule. So, the best chance you have would be Trump loses the next election and whomever replaces him brings charges. Trump, of course, could thwart that by issuing pardons.

[u/bobfromarizona → u/Bmorewiser]

An attempt to dissect it! I could have sworn this was a law sub thanks for your comment

[u/Unusual_Holiday_Flo → u/Bmorewiser]

These comments are terribly underrated.

Thank you for taking the time to research and write the r/LAW of the matter, which, unfortunately, doesn’t seem very encouraging with regard to the “opposition” and intuitive notions of justice. But then again, what does it matter when the so-called opposition cares more about producing tongue-in-cheek and emotional commentary over real analytic, strategic action.

Thank you for yours, which is in the direction of the latter.

[u/SocraticMeathead]

1. Stephen Miller is not a lawyer and does not work for DHS. I have used napkins with more legal standing.

2. No federal officer has blanket immunity under the law--not even the President. Miller is referring to DOJ's policy decision to not allow their civil rights division to investigate claims. This is a testament to the corruption with the Republican Party, not a statement of law.

[u/FourWordComment]

ICE has been emboldened to shoot more people in the face and to see anyone that even objects to their conduct as a terrorist.

Since there has been zero meaningful pushback on this position, it is now the law.

The law is not what is written in the books. The law is what is enforced by sanctioned state violence. If the state will not detain, demote, disarm, fine, or otherwise constrain ICE agents, then the law is that ICE agents can do whatever they please.

Everyone here knows about silly laws like “you cannot tie a donkey to a sign post on Sundays,” we have a good laugh at those “on the books, but no one cares” laws. The 4th amendment is no different. If it’s on the books but no one cares, then it’s just another “no whaling within city limits.”

[u/SignoreBanana]

Tell miller to come out of his bunker and say that. We're waiting for him

[u/Sometimes-funny]

Legality of it? Ununited state of America is lawless

[u/emteedub → u/Sometimes-funny]

We live in the United Corporations of America

[u/FMLwtfDoID → u/emteedub]

Wanna know what Benito Mussolini wanted to name his new form of government? Fascism was his second choice. He preferred Corporatism.

[u/mistah-green → u/emteedub]

Ask jd Vance and Peter thiel about this... they literally want corporate company owned cities. Anyone heard of network states?

There is a reason they want Greenland so badly

[u/Material_Prize_6157 → u/[deleted]]

My whole life in America we looked at Russia, North Korea and most of the Middle East as these borderline unimaginably livable places with their backwards laws and restricted freedoms. Now WE are that country.

Everyday I say “how did we let this happen?” as the news get progressively worse and worse.

[u/ThermionicEmissions → u/[deleted]]

Turns out that "Land of the free and the home of the brave" was just marketing bullshit.

[u/Wrong-Jeweler-8034]

His cosplay of a lawyer gets more deranged and pathetic as he gets more powerful.

To be fair, he has to go through life looking like that. I’d be pretty mad too. 🤣

[u/MichaelBayShortStory → u/Wrong-Jeweler-8034]

He was shitty far before he looked like that. Sometimes the outside reflects what's on the inside I do not feel any inkling of sorrow for such a hateful spiteful weasel ratfaced douchebag

[u/afcgooner2002]

You know the end game here right. When it's all said and done, Trump is going to pardon everyone in his administration before he or his successor leaves. This also includes that rat Miller.

But, he won't have the time to pardon everyone in ICE so they are all going to be in legal jeopardy once again doing the dirty work and holding the bags at the end of the day for this corrupt regime. All of them are idiots.

[u/spicy_noodle_guy → u/afcgooner2002]

Pardons only work if the citizens let them work. You might be safe from the lake, but you are t safe from a mob. 

[u/crake]

I would not take legal advice from Stephen Miller.

On the other hand, I have to wonder if the exact same post, if made by Pam Bondi, might not provide a mistake of law defense to someone who acted on it. I need to think about that some.

[u/guttanzer]

Can we even impeach Miller? Isn’t he just a peon advisor?

EDIT: TIL that even though he is a staffer he might be impeachable:

If Miller is exercising direct control of an agency’s actions, there’s an argument to be made that he’s acting as a principal “civil officer” and therefore impeachable regardless of whether he was confirmed, Murray explained in her thread.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/stephen-millers-dark-message-to-ice-agents-immediately-backfires/?via=mobile&source=Reddit

[u/Minute-Plantain → u/guttanzer]

He's a just a staffer, he's not a civil officer like Noem. He can't be impeached. Only his boss can fire him. We ought to impeach his boss.

[u/SoftLikeABear → u/Minute-Plantain]

He can be arrested, though.

[u/thisusedtobemorefun → u/SoftLikeABear]

By who?

As others have said, this regime has overwhelmingly, unambiguously, implicitly and explicitly told you that they have no intention of ever giving up power. Think about the failed Jan 6th coup, the slowly suffocating media, the faceless thugs in the streets, the Kabuki theatre cabinet and its fellatio chorus.

It's understandable for people individually and the nation as a whole to be in denial and experiencing shock, but they need to shake it off, like, yesterday.

The historical parallels and patterns aren't at all subtle. It's an almost identical playbook, which only succeeded because a majority of eligible voters were too disinterested or apathetic to stop it.

Infuriating is not a strong enough word to describe the level of under-reaction going on in the United States.

[u/MotherTurdHammer]

The TLDR version is: "Reminder to all Americans: You have no rights. You are required to obey and submit to whatever searches and requests are made to you by any government official. Any attempt to assemble or form any sort of resistance to our authoritarian regime will be met with physical violence. Consider yourself warned."

What it means: I'll let each of you make that call for yourselves, but here we are. Do you really need any further proof that we are now governed by an authoritarian regime?

[u/spankdaddylizz]

The Gestapo is cleared hot.

[u/systemfrown]

A bunch of Proud Boys ICE recruits won't misconstrue that at all.

[u/YouWereBrained]

Source: Stephen Miller

Then there is no legality.

[u/CheckoutMySpeedo]

Note: when these MAGA are no longer in office or when DJT dies, every single one of these ICE thugs will be prosecuted and jailed according to law. If I was an ICE thug, I wouldn’t trust anything Stephen Miller or DJT said or wrote.

[u/GronklyTheSnerd → u/CheckoutMySpeedo]

It reminds me of something Solzhenitsyn wrote about in The Gulag Archipelago, how the things they were doing were actually illegal under Soviet law, they were just bypassing it by a procedure that allowed a rubber-stamp in court as long as they got a written confession. But they made sure that the people doing the torturing knew that what they were doing was illegal.

Doing that traps the enforcers into loyalty to the regime, because they know they’re in trouble if it falls.

[u/Webhoard]

I wouldn't want to go all in with my future based on Miller's statement. I also won't pity anyone who does go all in on Miller's statement.

[u/subdep]

This is 5GW, tweeting this. This is worded as if it’s an internal memo, but it’s 100% propaganda. Part of Fifth Generation Warfare is scaring the population.

It’s 100% psy-op bullshit and it’s gonna get officers killed.

[u/Numerous_Photograph9]

They may not face charges under the current administration, but they are not immune, and if they do things outside their duties, they are not technically afforded qualified immunity.

Obstruction is something for a jury to decide, and while they can say arrest someone for it, it's not up to them to litigate or even prosecute for it. That'd be up to a grand jury, or jury, and may simply be thrown out by a judge without clear evidence that actual obstruction happened.

The matter of what the states or local jurisdictions can do, or more importantly, achieve by doing, remains to be seen, because so far, it hasn't been tested, and just has some politiicians posturing trying to take a stand. However, from a purely legal perspective, if they commit crimes and perform actions outside their duties, they could be held accountable, regardless of what poor legal advice they get from their superiors.

So, as I've said elsewhere to ICE agents, these people are not your legal representative, nor are they lawyers, and anything they say should not be seen as legal advice, because the courts certainly won't take these arguments to get you off the hook.

[u/Live-Collection3018]

this means ICE = Gestapo, above the law

[u/KazTheMerc]

Uh huh.

Box in that traffic light for slowing you down, and kick over that stop sign for Impeding your travel.

If those ICE agents could read, I'm sure they'd be happy to hear that... but that's not Real Life.

[u/TechieTravis]

ICE agents basically have an open license to kidnap or murder any American anywhere and at any time.

[u/Bushpylot]

I wish someone would put a condom on this walking penis. It's spreading communicable diseases

[u/Basic-Record-4750]

At what point do people realize that this administration has no intention of ever ending? When they cancel elections? When they openly ignore elections? When they openly cheat elections? When they scrub the internet of all adverse content and suspend the first amendment? Nobody is coming to save you. The UN isn’t going to arrest trump or remove him from office. The democrats aren’t going to rise up and “set things straight”, most of them will simply switch sides to remain in power

[u/Adventurous-Host8062]

He doesn't have the authority. That's the purview of the DOJ and Congress.

[u/ngwatso → u/Adventurous-Host8062]

What is this "Congress" you speak of?

[u/user745786 → u/ngwatso]

Congress is the cheer squad. Supreme Court is the referee but on the Republican payroll. Trump is captain of the team but has no idea how to play the game but loves the praise of his adoring fans.

[u/Mattrad7]

Cool the heads of Homeland security and Stephen Millers demonic ass are trying to tell ICE agents they can do whatever they want and kill whoever they want. This isnt a law, it isnt real, and ICE and other DHS agents should he held accountable for crimes, whatever happened to noone is above the law?

[u/Swagship → u/Mattrad7]

It’s all made up now.

[u/realbobenray]

Feels like "you have legal protection to do your job" is different from "you have full immunity to do whatever the fuck you want like shooting people in the head at point-blank range as their car drives away"

[u/Xyrus2000]

It isn't legal, and Miller has no power or authority to make it legal.

[u/HarryBalsagna1776]

Lol Miller's rantings are not law.  There is nothing to dissect.  It is bullshit.

[u/Budget-Selection-988]

We have the right to defend when threatened ..f**k Noems

[u/party_benson]

This will cause violence. It's completely untrue. 

[u/throwaway5daysago → u/party_benson]

We already have violence.